TowRig.com - Diesel Discussion and Tow Tech

I posted this on another forum a few months ago, but I want your guys' opions here...

I'm looking into 01-02 2500 4x4 Quad Cab Short Boxes with the 24V Cummins.

What are some of the benefts for real world towing of heavier loads (8,000lbs+) when looking at the Auto? What about Cons? Same for the 6 spd?

Here's what I've found so far:

6 Spd Pros: 55ftlbs of Torque from the factory, Durability & reliability, better control of the torque curve, the wife will be less likely to want to drive while loaded (she's a HORRIBLE driver, especially with a trailer)
6 Spd Cons: Tight ratios means more shifting around town, I'm getting lazy as I get older, harder to find used

Auto(47re) Pros: Torque converter slippage puts the engine in Peak torque from 0mph, and converter stall puts the engine in higher rpms from a lower MPH, "Stab & Steer" convenience, an Box will pickup that torque difference and then some, more common thus easier to find a good used one
Auto(47re) Cons: Reliability & durability, less control of torque curve, less exhaust brake options, Boxes adding power/torque further reduce durability, more likelyhood of the wife wanting to drive.

This truck would be my daily driver, and I would tow 8500lbs ~10 times a year, some short trips (20-50miles), some long trips (800miles+). I enjoy driving a manual, but I want what will perform the best for all around use. I guess my biggest concern is I don't want to have to wrestle the clutch to get it moving from a stoplight when I'm scaling in at 14,000+GCVW, and I don't want to lose boost when coming up to an incline and I start to downshift, but at the same time I don't want to have to rebuild transmissions every 50k miles, or skimp on 55ftlbs of factory torque either.

Test driving with the loaded trailer is going to be hard, if not impossible

Thanks in advance for any and all input...

-Mike

Biggest disadvantage in my book is that the Dodge tranny is not very durable, you'll end up putting money into it in rebuilds pretty fast. I would definately go with the handshaker, but I prefer manuals. If you're one of those guys that likes to drive "point and shoot" style then go auto, but personally I like to have more control over what my car/truck/van/motorcycle/bicycle/skateboard is doing.

If manuals were so bad for towing then the big boys would have autos too.

I can tell you I love the 6 speed in mine. It's a joy to drive, shifts smooth, the ratios are just right, loaded or not. I drive at least 60 miles per day and don't get tired of shifting. Now, if I lived in the city and did the stop and go thing all day, I'd probably get tired of it. It's a quantum leap ahead of the Getrags I had in my last two trucks. Another good thing is you get a Dana 80 rear with the 6 speed.

You aren't going to have ANY trouble getting 14K GCVW moving off the line with a Cummins. When I have all the toys on and pack for a long weekend, I'm pulling about 13K not including the truck. I generally let the clutch out at idle in 1st, and then roll on the power.

I can't tell you how I'd like an auto behind a Cummins, because I have had all manuals. As far as the wife driving, mine CAN, but doesn't have a lot of confidence. When we used to tow with a motorhome that had an auto, she didn't mind pulling the bumper pull trailer as long as we were on the interstate where she didn't have to stop or make turns. She wouldn't attempt it now with the 6 speed and 30 ft. gooseneck.waytogo

The 47RE is a fine transmission. If you keep it out of OD when towing and keep the engine stock it will live fine. It's pulling heavy really heavy loads, pulling in OD, and lots of aftermarket power that tears them up. I have 107K on my stock '01 with no problems with the auto. Eveyone I know didn't have problems with their autos under stock conditions either. I will definantly agree that they aren't quite as durable as the Allison in the GM's but under stock power, a driver that keeps it out of OD when towing and in town, and loads not over the factory rating, you shouldn't have a problem getting at least 100K out of the 47RE.

You can actually make a good, lower mileage 47RE very strong with not a lot of money. A good valve body and torque converter and it is strong enough for the average modified engine with a black box and a big heavy load behind it.

I haven't heard of any problems with the NV5600, besides a clutch that isn't any too strong. I remember when I was interested in the NV5600 6 spd because of the price of auto upgrades but after seeing the prices of some aftermarket clutches, for just a few hundred more I could have a VB and TC for the 47RE.

The only close friend that I have with a Cummins and an auto had to rebuild his at 45k and again at 100k. It now has 160k and needs another rebuild. Stock engine and he barely ever tows, primarily he drives it to and from work, over 200 miles a day. He maintains his vehicles well too, and he drives fast but is not abusive.

He got unlucky and or has another issue going on. For evey guy out there that said he only made it 10 miles on a rebuild there is another guy that says he has 250K on a stock tranny that has never even had the oil checked in it. That pretty much goes for anything in any kind of vehicle.

The E40D's were supposed to be crappy trannies behind the early PS Fords.....my grandpa's '95 has 278K on it with the stock E40D, only one fluid change at 95K. I had a relativly low mileage TH400 blow up in a stock '76 C30. I beat the hell out of my stock Th700R4 and never had a problem with it.

When it comes to stuff like that people are going to have stories from one end of the spectrum to the other. :)

Don't forget, there are other issues with the stick, depending on the year.

OD retaining nut issue. Supposedly can be fixed, but my neighbor had a 2000(?) dually quadcab with NV4500 that was "fixed" something like 3 times with the special nuts, new shaft, several different "fixes" he tried. Seems like he said the last time, he just had them tack weld it. Totally stock Cummins and couldn't keep the transmission in it.

I believe he said he ad over $1500 in the trans repairs (not to mention hotel bills and other expenses when he was stranded on the road) when he traded it for a Tacoma.

Also, lots of problems with clutches, pressure plates, and fly wheels. Depending on who you talk to, and what model, all 3 of these NEED upgrading even for stock, much less with upgrades. This affects the 5600 as well as 4500 trucks.

So just make sure you keep things in perspective. Yeah, the auto may need some money to survive, but some of the sticks are also going to require some upgrades.

As far as the box itself I haven't heard of any problems with the NV5600 6 spd. From what I know it's the NV4500 that had the 5th gear nut problem. Over at TDR I have read that the clutches with both the 5 and 6 spds are too light for the rest of the drivetrain, with the 6 spd having a slightly better clutch but still not strong enough. Pius, the owner of Bell Turbo ( the awesome USB and WSB turbo builder) told me he can smoke the clutch like it's nothing at 1800RPM's in his '02 HO 6 spd with his Edge Comp box on either level 4 or 5. He says if he gets the RPM's higher than that it will hold otherwise it can spin it right off if he wanted too.

The 47RE is a fine transmission. If you keep it out of OD when towing and keep the engine stock it will live fine.

So I have to sacrifice my Diesel fuel mileage to tow a load? No thanks, I'll take my manual again, the reason I bought a Diesel was the torque AND the fuel mileage, not one or the other.

you shouldn't have a problem getting at least 100K out of the 47RE.

100k transmission rebuilds are ok now? My DD has 112k and has never even had a clutch.

You can actually make a good, lower mileage 47RE very strong with not a lot of money. A good valve body and torque converter and it is strong enough for the average modified engine with a black box and a big heavy load behind it.

I haven't seen Chrysler suceed at ever building even a single automatic transmission. The aftermarket ones with hardened everything maybe, the facotry ones are absolute junk.

I haven't heard of any problems with the NV5600, besides a clutch that isn't any too strong. I remember when I was interested in the NV5600 6 spd because of the price of auto upgrades but after seeing the prices of some aftermarket clutches, for just a few hundred more I could have a VB and TC for the 47RE.

A lot of people said the NV 5600 was hard to shift. I drove one, and I think they were whining about nothing, but that's just me I guess.

Dodge isn't using the NV 5600 anymore, but I don't think it has anything to do with durability. It's about $$$$$$$$.

Tim,
Have you even owned a 47RE equipped truck? You can't tow with a 4500 in OD either.

Once again, the manual is more for towing, the auto is more for driveability and , for the diesel racing enthusiast, more for acceleration.

i dont use 1st and 2nd much when empty. i have a bit more power than in those years, but even with 9k behind the thing i can still easily start in 3rd. around town you can start mine in 3rd, and go from there.

i would never go to a slush box for towing. to risky and costly. not as much control. if you want something for around town go buy a beater thats an auto. then you will be win win and keep some miles off the dodge.
grant

Thank you.

Yes Bobby, sadly, I've driven automatics. Never again. They're horrible and shame on me for even considering such CRAP.

Tim,
Have you even owned a 47RE equipped truck? You can't tow with a 4500 in OD either.

You can't???

Don't tell my truck that, it does it non stop for 100's of miles every trip...

If you keep it out of OD when towing and keep the engine stock it will live fine. It's pulling heavy really heavy loads, pulling in OD....

That right there sealed the deal...

There's no way in hell I'm gonna run down the road at 2600+rpms in a diesel that redlines at 3200rpms for hundreds and hundreds of miles. That defeats the purpose of a diesel in itself. I hear of guys towing in OD all the time w/ the 48RE, but if the 47 can't handle it, I won't have it.

6 Speed it is! Thanks for the input, guys!

Welcome to the club! Seems like people that want to pick their own gears are a dying breed these days.

Yep, when I was tow rig shopping I knew I didn't want an Auto, especially from Dodge... So I looked forever till I found my current truck, no one here has sticks... There weren't even any on the lot in the new models (like I could afford that...).

But no Evan, I still don't want a manual on a trail rig, and I never did get that 2 foot driving thing down you told me about :D

Yep, when I was tow rig shopping I knew I didn't want an Auto, especially from Dodge... So I looked forever till I found my current truck, no one here has sticks... There weren't even any on the lot in the new models (like I could afford that...).

But no Evan, I still don't want a manual on a trail rig, and I never did get that 2 foot driving thing down you told me about :D

Same here, Manual for the tow rig and Auto for the Trail Rig, So how much did you save buying it a year old?

Bought it for 26k :pimp: . The guy owed 29k on it and I offered him 26 and he took it, he couldn't afford the payments anymore so he was desperate... He bought it new for $44k :eek:

Awesome, I may opt for a year old rig also, but it will take some time to find one with a manual.

Yep, took me about 10 months or so... I went and looked at alot of rigs with autos but couldn't bring myself to do it. One day while eating breakfast at a local resteraunt, I happened to pick up the photo ads and there it was :D . Had it for 8 months now and loved every minute of it. Really glad I don't have the payment of a new truck either!

Yes Bobby, sadly, I've driven automatics. Never again. They're horrible and shame on me for even considering such CRAP. Let me try your attitude. I also drove an NV5600 around the block and it was so slow, having to shift and wait for the turbo to spool back up everytime, what a piece of garbage!


Still, you had no way of testing the autos indurance nor did you use one day in and day out. Going on a test drive around the block with the used truck salesman doesn't count. ;)

You can't???

Don't tell my truck that, it does it non stop for 100's of miles every trip...
I said the NV4500, thats what I have been told. I'm sure it's fine with a 5600.

What's all this about not towing in OD? I tow in OD all the time... :D

I have the nv4500 in my truck and there is no way that an automatic would live behind some of the loads I pull. I have seen to many autos struggle to pull a load that my manual would walk off down the road in 5th gear.

From what I've read (no first hand info) there are "Hot Shotters" running the stock DMax/Allison that haul at 20-30k gross (apparently legally?) day in and day out with no problems. And as I said before, my neighbor with the QC dually with stock Cummins and 4500 couldn't keep a transmission in it when it ran empty most of the time, and only towed a (roughly) 4k painting supplies trailer (he is a commercial painter) part of the time.

My point is not that "manuals suck" or anything of the sort. But rather that they are both viable choices and that decisions should not be made based on global assertions that one or the other "sucks", but rather on what your current needs and goals happen to be.

The Dodge autos have been known to have problems, but so have the manuals, and getting either of them "up to snuff" could easily run into thousands of after-market upgrades either way. GM Allison cost a grand up front for the upgrade, but holds up stock just fine, and the GM manual is known to have flywheel/clutch problems that cost a grand or more to correct. So I just don't see how anyone can look at the situation rationally and make those global assertions. It just comes down to preference and use for the most part.

I said the NV4500, thats what I have been told. I'm sure it's fine with a 5600.

And yeah, I have an NV4500.

I said the NV4500, thats what I have been told. I'm sure it's fine with a 5600.

2003s are a weird animal, some can be 5 speeds, some 6 speeds, and with it, two different power outputs, etc. Salesman that sold me my truck has an 03 with 4500. They're anemic compared to the new ones he says, they need a turbo back exhaust and box to bring them up to spec. waytogo

Towing in OD with nearly any HD manual is a non issue.

My truck has the new G-56 transmission.

Awesome, I may opt for a year old rig also, but it will take some time to find one with a manual.

Good luck, I drove 400 miles to drive one. It had 4.10s so I walked...glad I did, new one was actually cheaper if you figure the options I bought vs. the truck I looked at. Truck was an 04 and had 12k on it.

2003s are a weird animal, some can be 5 speeds, some 6 speeds, and with it, two different power outputs, etc. Salesman that sold me my truck has an 03 with 4500. They're anemic compared to the new ones he says, they need a turbo back exhaust and box to bring them up to spec. waytogo

Oooohhhhhh....ok, that makes sence than. It was like that with the 01-02 trucks. Both the 4500 and 5600HO's were available, I was just under the assumption Dodge ended that with the 3rd gens. Thanks for the info. :pimp:

Nope, if you were unlucky enough to live in CA and bought an 03 you got an SO with NV4500 since they couldn't get the HO to pass smog regs here. Then in 04.5 they finally were able to get the HO in CA.

I had the same problem as the rest of you guys who wanted manuals. The salesmen just look at you like you pissed your pants or something. One guy tried as hard as he could to talk me into an Allison. I finally just had to say it's a matter of personal preference and no matter what anybody says I won't be happy unless I find a real transmission.

. I finally just had to say it's a matter of personal preference and no matter what anybody says I won't be happy unless I find a real transmission.

rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl

If that didn't work, what would you do, drop your drawers and show him you had bigger balls than him and could handle banging your own? :pimp: :pimp:

When I called the guy on my Dodge I asked if it was an auto or manual and he's all "Ah it's a manual, sorry". I'm like NO! Thats a good thing! He couldn't believe it... :rolleyes:

When I called the guy on my Dodge I asked if it was an auto or manual and he's all "Ah it's a manual, sorry". I'm like NO! Thats a good thing! He couldn't believe it... :rolleyes:

My salesman not only has a CTD with a 5 speed, he said he mostly orders trucks for people because other dealers will not even order a truck with a manual.

I don't understand how you guys had so many problems finding manuals. When I was looking for a CTD I found a bunch of HO's with the 5600. Infact, I had had my choice between this 2001 Red sport HO and the 2001 Red sport SO auto. I took the auto truck because it had the much sexier black leather, had 13K less miles, the HO was an early '01 with rear drums, it has stupid looking black fender flares, had the funky styled billet bumper inserts(they're outside the bumper), but most importantly I went home with an auto and not the super slow manual. :pimp:


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I just ordered a new truck and I got the sexy black leather, the manual trans, zero miles, and rear disc brakes without any extra work, rotfl

I just ordered a new truck and I got the sexy black leather, the manual trans, zero miles, and rear disc brakes without any extra work, rotflAnd your payment is a LOT higher than mine.;)

And your payment is a LOT higher than mine.;)

Actually, I think my payment is probably going to be lower than yours considering the downpayment I'm making, and 2 years from now, my payment will be ZERO.

Actually, I think my payment is probably going to be lower than yours considering the downpayment I'm making, and 2 years from now, my payment will be ZERO. I highly doubt that, since I paid for half of my truck with cash.

I highly doubt that, since I paid for half of my truck with cash.

waytogo Well I'm proud of you bobby. If you wnat to start a topic on how you paid for your truck, go ahead. Let's keep this one on topic as much as possible.;)

Going OT here...
I applaud both of you. <clapping> Too many people in too much debt, especially for vehicles and houses. Like you, I paid off over 1/3 of my truck and 1/2 my wife's GTP when I bought them, and doubling payments till paid for. 2004 car almost paid for and '02 HD paid for in about 1.5 years (edit: from the day I bought it). I hate paying interest, only thing I owe substantially on is my house and I'm paying extra against the principle with every payment (after huge down). My neighbor who had the troublesome CTD was "upside down" and wound up having to transfer debt to his new Tacoma <shaking head>.

And it's not TOO far OT since initial purchase cost is one of the BIG cons of diesel...

My payment is going to be lower than both of yours, since I'm paying for the whole thing in cash.:D So there.rotfl

And thats why I bought a used one, I'm a broke sob and didn't want to be paying for a truck for 8 years... (can't believe they have 8 year car loans now).

I hear ya Russ, but on the wife's car we got the 0% interest loan for 48 months and let them carry the whole thing. Money for nothing works too. waytogo The thing I don't understand on this loan is there's a prepayment penalty if we pay it off early. Other wise we'd pay it off early too. When we bought my C3500 we got a "simple" interest loan, like a home loan, and made double payments paying to note off in 1.5 years. With a "rule of 7/8s (sic)" loan you still pay all the interest even making extra payments.

waytogo Well I'm proud of you bobby. If you wnat to start a topic on how you paid for your truck, go ahead. Let's keep this one on topic as much as possible.;) Hey buddy, you started it. ;) You figured your payment would be lower because you assumed you had a larger portion of your pickup paid for with cash than I did. :)

Russ,
I completely agree. It's amazing how many people find credit as "free" money. I have seen friends that I graduated high school with go nuts with credit cards and are still paying them off today. EVen with ATV and snowmobile commercials these days....they don't tell you what the MSRP is on the vehicle....they tell you what you would be paying per month. :rolleyes:

I can't say I had the cash to back up my pickup and pretty much sucked the life out of my savings when I did buy the pickup, but it got my payment down low enough that I knew I wouldn't have any trouble making it every month and not get myself into financial trouble and ruin my credit.

I just realized my post wasn't clear. I paid off my '02 in 1.5 years, it was bought late Summer of '02 and paid off November of 2004.

I know what you mean. A guy my wife works with just found out he had overdrawn his checking account by $700, and has 3 or 4 credit cards maxed out, with no money to pay rent or other payments. A friend of mine from high school thought that if they gave you credit, you could pay for it. If not, they wouldn't give you the credit, right? So he borrowed and borrowed, and went belly up. It's sad how gullible sheeple can be, always more than happy to buy into the "get today, pay for it tomorrow" mentality the Yuppy generation has epitomized.

I don't go for that. Other than a few minor exceptions like my vehicles and house, I will accept NO debt. If I can't pay for it, I don't do it. That's why my truggy progress is slow, that's why I don't yet have that ATS trans upgrade I've been wanting for the last year. Braces for my daughter, savings and all that stuff comes first, then I see what can be spared for toys…

Sheesh, we are going a bit OT aren't we...

So, to get back on topic, whether 6 spd or auto, don't buy it unless you can afford it. Save your pennies and then get what you want for the way you want to use it. :D