TowRig.com - Diesel Discussion and Tow Tech

I'll be pulling my 1990 Suburban trail rig that weighs about 7000lbs and my bumper pull trailer weighs about 2300lbs. I plan on getting a cabover camper eventually. I've heard they weigh from 2K to 3K. Right now I have my eye on a 2wd Dodge Dually but I haven't bought anything yet.

I don't want to buy something I have to modify. So what are the pro and cons of the different rigs?

The Dodge has the Cummins but also has a teeny tiny backseat, the Chevy has a super plush interior but also has IFS and you can't get a manual trans, the Ford has arguably the best frame and running gear and the highest GVWR (important for you with the weight you'll be hauling, especially with a slide-in camper), but has a very truckish interior that many don't like and also has the red-headed stepchild of the deisel engine world with the 6 liter PSD.

I agree on the Dodge, small back seat is one of the main things that put me off it when I bought my GM. And Ford interior just didn't "fit". Both lost point on the auto options as well, but strong aftermarket upgrades are available.

What do you mean no manual, you can get a manual...

On the IFS, I think that is one of the bigger benefits of GM for a tow rig. It's pure hell if your gonna put lift, big tires and try to offroad it, but if your gona tow, and use the 4WD for snow/ice, camp access, fire roads to get to the trail head/fishin' hole or whatever, there is nothing in the world wrong with it. And the HUGE up side is that it drives and tracks loaded or unloaded WAY better than the Ford or the Dodge 4wd. You just can't get variable geometry with the solid front axle like you can with IFS, and they last a LONG time with little or no expense as long as you don't start lifting or "crankin' the bars". There are guys out there doing stalled 4WD 1/4 mile sub 13 second runs on stock IFS trucks, and then they tow the support trailer with the "real" race car home after the drags...

I'm not too worried about the small back seat in the Dodge. I'm only 5'8" on a good day, my wife is about an inch shorter, and my kids are 6 and 11 years old. I really don't think they're going to be too tall and I won't have the front seat pushed back too far.

I also forgot to meantion that one of my wife's realitives said he could get me the friends and family discount because he works for the Dodge plant in Michigan.:pimp: It's something like 5% under dealer cost.

What do you mean no manual, you can get a manual...

Oh sorry, you can get a manual with a flywheel that's so weak the engine has to be detuned bu 80hp or so, and the thing will still fry itself by 20k miles.:D

BUT, you can't get the manual with that gem of a flywheel in a truck that has the LS interior, since lord knows nobody would want leather AND a stick.:rolleyes:

Sounds like Dodge may get the nod then. No doubt they do make a good truck, and a lot less than the GM, plus they have a new front suspension that is *supposed* to eliminate a lot of the vague steering and wandering (mostly the problem was the panhard from what I've read). If you pick one of the "big 3" that fits your needs and budget, you can't go wrong with any of them I think...

But with me at 6' even and my 17 yo son at over 6'1, I needed the back seat. The IFS, comforatable interior that "fits" me, and Allison took me away from Ford, even though at the time the DMax was new and the 'Stroke nearly ballanced it out due to my concerns over a "new" engine, especially with GMs track record on screwing up diesels. Just giving an idea of the thought processes that led me to GM...

Sounds like your mind is already made up!:D

Ahh, now that I can generally agree on. :D That flywheel is a joke and would need upgrade pretty much immediately, much like the autos of the other manufacturers. ;) And no, I'm not trying to get that arguement dredged up here either...

Not offering the manual on the LS is kinda silly. But if I wanted it, it really wouldn't matter, since I prefer not having leather. Mine has it only because that is what was on the lot with all the stuff I wanted and I was getting the "clear the lot for new models" incentives on top of "GM Employee" pricing. waytogo

Ahh, now that I can generally agree on. :D That flywheel is a joke and would need upgrade pretty much immediately, much like the autos of the other manufacturers. ;) And no, I'm not trying to get that arguement dredged up here either...

You won't get any argument from me since I agree 100%. I got myself a nice fully loaded truck with a manual trans (and a nice single mass flywheel).waytogo

Autos are for old ladies and parapalegics, but I'm not going to start that argument here either.:stir: rotfl

Autos are for old ladies and parapalegics, but I'm not going to start that argument here either.:stir: rotfl

Well since Russ has a plastic knee and I have had mine completly rebuilt using stock body parts just not in the normal application (acl and mcl torn acl replaced with patella tendon and mcl screwed back on), I guess we almost fit that description. :D

Besides we all know that Russ drives his truggy like that little old lady, and I only like to tow mine around to look cool for the chicks.rotfl

Every word, so true... rotfl

Damn, that's twice today that I look like an ass... I need to go home and get back in bed.:o

So, the Chevy's got the best ride quality and the Dodge has the best price, what about the most torque?

Dodge with the Cummins 610.

Here's how I look at it.

The Dodge still has the best engine hands down but with not nearly the best transmission options. The 48RE auto is a decent tranny but the new 6 spd manual has barely hit the streets and is untested in the real world. I'm still undecided if going over to AAM running gear from good 'ol Dana Spicer was a good thing.

The GM is nice if you tow on the weekend and your wife is a soccer mom during the week while you are at work. :stir: I'm not a fan of the IFS front end because it is expensive to work on when it does eventually need some work done, which probably wouldn't be for a long time though. THe Allison is a good transmission from what I have heard and seen, can't go wrong there. THe manual tranny in the GM's is a joke.
The new Duramax engine is a good engine too, can't go wrong there either. I like the GM's interior but I can't stand their exterior one bit. The GM is a little too "light duty" for my taste, yes, because of their front end.

The Ford is a damn solid truck. I like their new front suspension and new heavier duty D60. Good brakes and a good frame from Ford. I think the bugs have been worked out of the 6.0 PSD and is a good engine these days, the torque shift auto isn't bad either from my first hand experience. THe exterior of the new Ford is really nice, I like it probably the most out of all three current trucks but the interior is too boring for me.

If I was going to buy a brand new truck it would be a toss up between a new Ford or Dodge. Regardless it would be an auto for me, I like being able to take full advantage of the power of todays diesels from 0-60 and I have better things to do than shift all day long. :)

Hmmm, other than our classic disagreement about the IFS, I find I don't dissagree with most of your points, at least not "violently disagree", though there is room for debate. I better go back and reread that, musta missed something... rotfl

Holy smokes I agree with everything RJF said too... Except about the Torqueshift on the Ford, it's already having issues and I've heard complaints about it. I think the only auto worth a whole lot at this point is the Allison, luckily that means that each brand has one solid trans available in it.waytogo

I take it my opinion is usually off the wall then. :rolleyes:

Ok, can't resist. :doah:

Cummins is not "hands down" the winner. It has good points in many areas, but the DMax and PS beat it in others.

I do agree about the transmissions.

Obviously disagree on the IFS comments.

I do hate the "angry chinaman" front on the new Chevy trucks. I really don't think I could stand to own one. GMC still looks good though, for now. Can't stand the new Dodge either, but I like it better than Chevy. New for top body style would be between the Ford SD and the GMC HD.

Not yet convinced on the 6.0 having the bugs out, but I would hope so. Some of it's problems were pretty fundamental from what I recall, but I don't remember the details (getting old)...

So, if I could stand the Ford interior, and convince myself the 6.0 was "good" (like I did with the DMax when it was new), then it would be between GMC and Ford SD for me...

I just couldn't let it stand agreeing with Bobby on that many things. rotfl

Ok, can't resist. :doah:

Cummins is not "hands down" the winner. It has good points in many areas, but the DMax and PS beat it in others.

I do agree about the transmissions.

Obviously disagree on the IFS comments.

I do hate the "angry chinaman" front on the new Chevy trucks. I really don't think I could stand to own one. GMC still looks good though, for now. Can't stand the new Dodge either, but I like it better than Chevy. New for top body style would be between the Ford SD and the GMC HD.

Not yet convinced on the 6.0 having the bugs out, but I would hope so. Some of it's problems were pretty fundamental from what I recall, but I don't remember the details (getting old)...

So, if I could stand the Ford interior, and convince myself the 6.0 was "good" (like I did with the DMax when it was new), then it would be between GMC and Ford SD for me...

I just couldn't let it stand agreeing with Bobby on that many things. rotfl

You pretty much nailed my thought process leading up to ordering my truck on the head. I have to say of all the engines I first wanted the Cummins, but after looking into the D-Max I started to be a bit torn. The Dodge was not an option though after I realized that it had such a small back seat. No way a rear facing baby seat can fit back there, and that's an issue for me. The Chevy was out since I dislike the front end, although the HD front ends for '05 are much better with the more bulgy front edge on the hood. So for me it did come down to the GMC and the Ford SD. It was about a 6 week process to decide, and I still am not convinced that I made the right choice, mainly because of the 6.0L PSD. If the Ford engine had a better reputation then there would have been no contest, I like the exterior way better and actually prefer the interior too. The GM interiors are too carlike for me, I know that I'm in the minority with that opinion, but I'm a funny dude. I also really wanted a manual trans and there was no chance that I was going to get stuck with that abortion of a flywheel in the GMs.

Ok, can't resist. :doah:

Cummins is not "hands down" the winner. It has good points in many areas, but the DMax and PS beat it in others.
I disagree. I find it humorous that with the Navistar and Dmax engines, as soon as you move up from a LD pickup they are no longer V8's and are inline 6's. That larger 8. something L that comes in some of the Topkicks and the legendary DT466 come to mind. As everyone knows, I'm in the trucking business. Detroit Deisel used to build a LOT of V8 diesels in OTR trucks, they are gone and inline 6 engines are the only thing used today in basically anything larger than a 1 ton pickup ( besides an F450/550 and supposedly the V8 DM is available in the Topkicks). CAT, Cummins, and Detroit diesel have all gotten away from V8's and now build inline 6's, that stands out to me. I'm not saying the two V8's can't compete and power numbers show that but I find the ISB much sturdier and longer lasting because of it's design.

I am waiting to hear of PSD's and DM's getting well over a half million miles like I hear about the ISB's. I just don't see the mileage coming from the V8 diesels. The cummins inline 6 is like the Energizer bunny in my book.... rotfl






Obviously disagree on the IFS comments. You have good reason too. It rides cushy and is fine for the average tow rig. The fact that it can't stand bigger tires and truck pulls/offroading steers me away from it. I like lifted HD trucks with swampers that kill at the pulls and the HD's can't hang with the Ford or Dodge. I'm sure larger tires and offroad type stuff with HD pickups is not what most are interested in here and I'm sure that I'm alone with that since this site is more geared towards towing, which is fine.

.

I just couldn't let it stand agreeing with Bobby on that many things. rotfl That hurts that you think my opinions are so off the wall you can't stand to agree with me on something. :poke:

Why is it humorous and how does it invalidate my point? Your argument is no more valid or relevant than the argument that since one sells the most, therefore it must be the best. There are other things to consider that make it impossible to tie them together in that way.

The V8's enjoy smoother, quiter operation and less vibration along with a much wider and flatter power band. So they make sense where that is a significant concernt, and in those categories, the V8s are the clear winners. In heavier class trucks, longevity, simplicity, fuel mileage, and all sorts of other things come in and eclipse the smoother operation, and the numerous gears as well as better training in engine power management allow better use of the peaky power band of the Cummins. So, longevity, simplicity, and peak power (per unit of fuel) output are categories the Cummins wins "hands down".

So, I stand by my statement. Each has categories that it "wins", and there is simply no "hands down" winner across all categories.

And it can stand "truck pulls", there are a fair few doing just fine even in modified classes. But no, they don't like larger tires, but that is primarily because of resulting CV angles, not an inherent weakness. And who cares with a tow rig? To be blunt, I want a truck that works best for what I want to do with it. And IFS works best for a tow rig if it does not see serious off-road use. If I ever decide to "off road" my '02, sure, I'll swap in a D60 and move on. But it makes no sense to impose "off road ease of upgrade" on a tow rig at the cost of towing ability. And in my mind, the drawbacks of "live" front axle very significant in a tow rig used for towing. In fact, it makes about as much sense to me as running large tires on a tow rig that never sees more than dirt roads and the occasional camp site or fire road. My 33s work just fine on and off the road, and the IFS couldn't care less.

LOL, you and I are simply polar opposites. I just enjoy poking a stick at you too much to stop…
:poke:

This is getting good. :popcorn: :D

Actually Navistar/International uses a hell of alot of T444E (PSD) motors in medium duty trucks. While they arent class 8 tractors, alot of 4700 series International straight frame trucks are powered by this motor, and do quite well with it. Last time I checked the International 4700 wasnt an "LD" truck.

Why is it humorous and how does it invalidate my point? Your argument is no more valid or relevant than the argument that since one sells the most, therefore it must be the best. There are other things to consider that make it impossible to tie them together in that way.
Comparing what I said to the guy that "figured" Dodge outsold everyone else is silly. It is a fact that an inline 6 design is more efficient than a V8 design, thats why none of the manufacturers like CAT, Detroit, and John Deere don't even try and design a V8 diesel that would be in a light-medium applications.

The V8's enjoy smoother, quiter operation and less vibration along with a much wider and flatter power band. So they make sense where that is a significant concernt, and in those categories, the V8s are the clear winners. In heavier class trucks, longevity, simplicity, fuel mileage, and all sorts of other things come in and eclipse the smoother operation, and the numerous gears as well as better training in engine power management allow better use of the peaky power band of the Cummins. So, longevity, simplicity, and peak power (per unit of fuel) output are categories the Cummins wins "hands down". Some people like that the new "soccer mom acceptable" diesels are quieter than traditional diesels.....I like not having that multi injection idle stuff that makes it quieter at idle. I love the sound of the inline 6 diesels, they actually SOUND like a diesel. I'm not worried about the powerband between the inline 6 and V8 engines. I have plenty of power whenever I need it and don't find the Cummins narrow band to be problematic, especially with 4 gears and lockup in two of them. That is the main reason why I don't want a 3rd gen Dodge, they don't sound like a diesel. Call me a fanatic but I've grown up around loud diesel engines all my life and that is what I have learned and have come accustomed to.
And it can stand "truck pulls", there are a fair few doing just fine even in modified classes. But no, they don't like larger tires, but that is primarily because of resulting CV angles, not an inherent weakness. And who cares with a tow rig? To be blunt, I want a truck that works best for what I want to do with it. And IFS works best for a tow rig if it does not see serious off-road use. If I ever decide to "off road" my '02, sure, I'll swap in a D60 and move on. But it makes no sense to impose "off road ease of upgrade" on a tow rig at the cost of towing ability. And in my mind, the drawbacks of "live" front axle very significant in a tow rig used for towing. In fact, it makes about as much sense to me as running large tires on a tow rig that never sees more than dirt roads and the occasional camp site or fire road. My 33s work just fine on and off the road, and the IFS couldn't care less. I find what you said that is in bold funny. Me and the rest of the Dodge guys, including Ford owners already have a D60. Like I said, I am probably alone with what I'm interested in HD trucks. This site is geared towards towing, which is what almost all of the members use their trucks for, inluding you. I agree that what you do with your truck IFS is plenty fine. I see HD trucks as a great buildup for a hi performance truck. I am into lifted HD diesel Dodges and Fords that pull at the pulls with swampers, Welds, and a seriously bombed motor just as much as I'm interested in what they are capable of towing. But like I said, that is what I'm interested in and is really, not relavant to this site.

LOL, you and I are simply polar opposites. I just enjoy poking a stick at you too much to stop…
:poke: We are not nearly as opposite as you might think, from my memory we agree a lot of the times. Why you like "poking a stick" at me, I don't know.

You must have a really narrow opinion of what a "real diesel" sounds like. To me an diesel sounds like a real diesel, since it's a diesel.:doah: My DD VW Jetta with a 1.9L inline 4 cyl diesel sounds like a diesel. The '05 6.0L PSDs are freakin LOUD and sound like, well, a diesel. I can hear my brother's '03 D-max Chevy from my backyward when he pulls into my driveway, it sounds like a diesel. If what you're saying is you like the older Dodges that idle so loud that you can't even hear yousrself think when you're standing within 20 feet then you're likely in the minority on that. I don't drive a semi every day, and I sure don't want to have to crank the stereo to hear it or yell so my wife can hear me as I drive my $45k truck down the highway. Same reason I don't put loud exhaust on my cars and trucks anymore.

When I was a kid I thought that everyone else thought I was cool because I had loud exhaust. Then I grew up and realized that they didn't think I was cool, they thought I was annoying. Now it pisses me off when the neighborhood teenagers drive their straightpiped cars and farty rice rockets into the hood at night because they're so loud that they disturb my peace and quiet.

Me and the rest of the Dodge guys, including Ford owners already have a D60

Once again, no all the Dodge guys do not have D60s. You're arguing about older trucks AGAIN here, comparing a narrow year range of Dodges to GMs and Fords in general. I do beleive that the new Dodges DO use pilot injection now to quiet down the idle, and I am pretty sure that the 6.0L is now louder than the Cummins at idle. You should put a disclaimer in your sig that says "*When I say Dodge I mean 01-02.5 Dodges only*"

THe manual tranny in the GM's is a joke.

It's the same as the one in the Ford. rotfl

If what you're saying is you like the older Dodges that idle so loud that you can't even hear yousrself think when you're standing within 20 feet then you're likely in the minority on that.

I think you're incorrect there. A great many TDR users would prefer to program out the split injection. It's a waste of fuel in addition to the sound issue. Me personally, for what I paid for a truck, I wanted one that sounds like a Diesel, and to me, the 6.0, the new Cummins, and especially the Duramax, don't sound like a Diesel.

I paid a lot of money for my truck, and it irritates me that I have to buy an exhaust system, remove a silencer ring, and do a few other mods to make it sound like a Diesel. The 7.3, older Cummins before HPCR, and even the 6.5 TD sounded like REAL Diesels.

I would take the sound of a straight piped 12 valve 94-98 cummins any day of the week. It's not that it's loud, it's just that it sounds like the diesels from back in the day. Actually sounds just like an old deuce and a half chugging around. Daddy likes. I'm just a huge diesel fan and love everything about the engines so it's just music to my ears.

http://www.jannettyracing.com/media_files/Acclerate_2.mpg

It's the same as the one in the Ford. rotfl



The problem is not the tranny, it's the lousy dual-mass flywheel that GM uses.

LOL, Bobby, I think you are intentionally misunderstanding me. But hey, in the interest of fun, I'll bite...

I said that the two were alike in that you can't draw the stated conclusion from the indicated starting point. And that is plainly true. It's just simple fact. I made no reference or comparison to the flawed "statistics", only the flawed logic, which in fact is the same.

And it's the same with the "soccer mom acceptable diesels", power band, and other related points. I and lots of others like it quieter and LOVE the broader power band. And I didn't say they were important to you. I said that there are different categories and different engines excel in different categories. That the Cummins is clearly NOT a "hands down" winner as so many Cummins fanatics would claim. You are more than welcome to your own choices, and the Cummins may be the "hands down winner" for *you*, but you can't say that it is the winner *period*, because that simply is not true. That does not hold water any more than using faulty logic to imply that the Cummins is better in LD trucks due to its use in MD trucks.

I also fail to see what you put in bold as "funny". Sure, you Ford and Dodge guys already have that Dana 60 *if* the truck is ever converted to serious off-road use (as in "requires tires larger than 33"). But as I said and you ignored, you guys also get to deal with the negative aspects of a live front axle all those years while using it as a tow vehicle and daily driver. If you're willing to compromise towing and DD performance so you can run big tires on a truck that is too expensive and nice to actually use the capabilities implied by those tires off-road, go ahead. I want to use my truck as a DD and tow rig for the next 100-200k miles, and its features were selected to provide IMO the best mix for that purpose. And it's quite likely that I will sell it before I get there anyway, so I want what works best for me in the foreseeable future, not what might materialize 10-15 years from now when I probably won't own it and may not even be into off-roading (since I'll be in my 50s)

I see this much the same as I see your stance on off road K5s where you say, "If you want to run bigger tires, just add more lift, DON'T CUT THE FENDERS!" all the time. In this, like that, you are heedless of the fact that you are making major sacrifices on the primary purpose for some secondary aesthetic. There you want the "big tire look" of a "hard core off road vehicle", but by raising it till the stock wheel wells clear the tires, you make the CoG so high the vehicle sucks on the road and off. Here you talk about raising and putting on big tires with little reason more than "looks" (I know you might get some benefit on the farm and there is the "pulls" comment too) while still keeping the primary purpose as "tow rig", which you just compromised with big tires and lift that's not really needed or used. Again, you tout the benefits of a solid axle on a "tow rig" due to an ability to, again, raise it up and stick big tires on it. Even though that brings a bunch of draw backs with no benefit other than "a look" (unless you are hard core tractor pull, I'll give you that, but then the primary purpose is not tow rig or DD). That is, unless you're planning on doing some serious off-roading with your lifted long bed nice shiny and expensive tow rig. I'm certainly not. And most buyers also are not, so tell me again why the solid front axle is such a plus to anyone other than those who want to make major sacrifices in the primary use of a truck just for a "look"? Or those rare privileged few who can afford a nice new truck to make a serious off road truck out of.

LOL, I just realized, it's the same thing as the soccer mom/yuppie fixation. You said your "probably alone" on this site due to it's tow rig focus. And I was going to say that I think you're probably in a minority of those that buy these trucks in general. But I was wrong. They want big SUVs and "Trucks" for the look, with no intention of using them for what that "look" implies. And they often go so far as to add the push bars, lights, big tires and such like too. So we get legions of SUVs that never see so much as grass, much less dirt. And HD trucks that were not bought to tow, but for "image". I know that you *do* use yours to tow some around the farm and what not, but the parallels between many with similar views that don't happen to live on a farm are just too delicious to pass up. haha

And *please* don't get me wrong. I fully support your decision to do this to your truck. Or to choose your truck for whatever purpose you like, including running 35" boggers with 8" of lift or whatever it is/was. I'm not "dising" you, I'm just saying that those compromises and "costs" are not acceptable to most of us, so please don't try to tell us that the truck you chose for your reasons is the better truck over all.

Oh, and there is nothing wrong with the GM HD as a performance platform. It'll handle the drags and the towing track just fine and guys do it all the time with pretty good success and much less money in it than the Dodges or Fords, but your right, they can't compete in the "big tire" classes without front end modifications. But at least we don't have to o-ring our wimpy little aluminum heads just to make decent power. ;) :stir:

Finally, I hope you realize that I'm just having fun with you and the "Brand Wars" forum. Yeah, I know we agree on lots of things. But we are polar opposites on global sacrifices for a "look". And in that respect, it makes us like "Firing Line" or something on these topics. Entertainment for readers (and us too) while hashing out topics from both sides to see what relevant points can be brought out. Believe it or not, I actually like you and I'm not trying to tick you off… Just answering your points as I see them. <offering handshake>

Ahh, now I've got to get back to "reading specs" which I hate so badly, and consequently, why I've wasted so much time with these topics and posts in the last week..

Take care Bobby, and don't let me get to you, it's all in fun, even if we disagree...

Are there any Cliffs Notes for this thread?

I think what you guys mean by "sounds like a diesel" is really "sounds like an OTR truck". I'm with Shaggy on this too. I had the GTOs, 340 Cuda, 39 Chevy Coup, 72 L-82 and all with loud exhaust and thought it was cool. Then I grew up and realized how irritating it is to everyone around, in particular and most importantly, ME! :doah: Now I have not modified the exhaust of my DMax to lower EGT when towing and fueling because I *like* it quiet in the cab and I'm afraid I'll pick up more noise if I open 'er up. So I turn down the fuel to keep the EGT down and ride in my nice quiet truck as I travel from Coast to Coast or just across the state...

Have you guys ridden in a 12 valve 2nd gen dodge? The cab is nice quiet, Dodge used about 1" of sound barrier in the engine compartment and another 3/4" in the cab. You can hold a convo or take a nap or whatever your into at highway speeds.

I run a grandpa series muffler on my trail rig because I hate the noise echoing through the canyons while wheeling. And my cab in my dodge is nice and quiet, well, so is my exhaust though. I straight piped my truck but the HPCR's sound like poo so I went back to a muffler.

Are there any Cliffs Notes for this thread?
Why would you need such a thing? rotfl

Sorry, side effect of someone who type a lot and has learned to type fast so it just spills out as I think... Before I know it, you have posts like you see here. Believe it or not, I actually sometimes try to trim them down, but didn't feel like going back to edit that one to remove redundancies and such. It's pretty much just exactly the way it spilled from my brain. Like paint from a bucket I guess? Or p**s from a boot might be better... :o

I started reading from the beginning but every 3 posts seemed to be duplicates. Someone says something and the other 2 arge it, someone says something and the other 2 argue it... Anyway, in case you didn't catch it, the most important thing posted in this thread was this:

http://www.jannettyracing.com/media_files/Acclerate_2.mpg

Yes I have, and I guess we have different standards of quiet. Mine is in a whole different category to a 2nd Gen Dodge... and I owned one...

Well I guess we do then.

I was in/around a 05 I think duramax the other day and I couldn't even tell it was a diesel from standing around it. Thats just not for me.

As everyone knows, I'm in the trucking business. Detroit Deisel used to build a LOT of V8 diesels in OTR trucks, they are gone and inline 6 engines are the only thing used today in basically anything larger than a 1 ton pickup CAT, Cummins, and Detroit diesel have all gotten away from V8's and now build inline 6's, that stands out to me.

The V8 DD are gone because they couldn't meet the smog regs with a 2 stroke diesel engine. In its day in big rigs with the twin turbo O/O spec 8V92 was the drag race queen of OTR trucks.

You didn't see many V8 Cats cause you needed a twin stick 5x4 or 6x4 trans to hold up with the torque a 3408 Cat made then. Now they make higher rated 13, 15, and 18 spd RoadRanger trans.

On a diesel PU sounding like a OTR truck. me and my friends find it funny that the contractor's PUs are louder than our Class 8 trucks are ideling.

And RJF and the cummins this and cummins that, almost evrybody I work with has either a DD S60 or Cat powered rigs. Most of us look down on the Cummins powered rigs. :stir: :pimp:

WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE ARGUING OVER THE FRONT SUSPENSION!

In the orriginal posters 2nd sentence he says he is looking at a 2wd dually, every single one of these trucks in 2wd is IFS. It is a completely mute point to argue about.

One thing, Bobby, is that the T444E and T366E are used in MANY medium duty applications, almost as much as the famed DT466 now. There are still tons of Detroit 2 stroke V' motors on the road serving their purpose and getting the job done as well, and they were doing it better than I-6's, because the I-6's couldnt. If it burns diesel fuel, its a real diesel. Just because it sounds different than an I-6 doesnt mean crap. Just because you like that it sounds better doesnt mean its suddely superior to others because your truck sounds more like an OTR truck than the next guy with a D-max.

Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. Do i like the sound of a cummins over the D-max, you bet, but im not going to base my arguement over personal preference on how it sounds, because that is idiotic. I personally like the sound of an IDI 444 idling better than a cummins, but that doesnt make it a better motor.

To the orriginal poster, all 3 have their advantages and dissadvantages. Go out to the dealers, drive them all in the trim you would want, and make your decision on personal preference. Any of them will tow your burb no problem, all of them will be fine with the cabover, and all of them are "Real" diesels, just go drive and pick what you like best. Me personally, i like the ford trucks, but hate the 6.0. I like the GM except for how low the framerails hang and the pricetag. I like the dodge except for the fact that no matter what you put under the hood, its still a dodge, and that the backseat sucks with me being 6'5".

Oops, your right! Sorry to go so far OT...

First off I can't believe how many posts were made since I was just on two hours ago and don't have the time to respond to everyone, so sorry if I miss you. rotfl

The '05 6.0L PSDs are freakin LOUD and sound like, well, a diesel. I can hear my brother's '03 D-max Chevy from my backyward when he pulls into my driveway, it sounds like a diesel. If what you're saying is you like the older Dodges that idle so loud that you can't even hear yousrself think when you're standing within 20 feet then you're likely in the minority on that. I don't drive a semi every day, and I sure don't want to have to crank the stereo to hear it or yell so my wife can hear me as I drive my $45k truck down the highway. Same reason I don't put loud exhaust on my cars and trucks anymore.

FIrst off, for a diesel the new 6.0 is VERY quiet, along with the Dmax. My neighbor has an '04.5 Harley Edition SD with the 6.0 and I joke with him that he has a gas engine because it definantly doesn't sound like a diesel.

Second, you are COMPLETELY over agzadurating about how loud a 2nd gen Cummins is. I can stand next to the hood of my truck outside with it running and hold a conversation at normal voice levels, they aren't NEAR as loud as you say. Inside the cab and I can barely hear the engine at all, infact, The turbo is almost louder than the engine itself with a liberal amount of throttle. I spend half of my day on the phone working with customers/employees/parts people and never have a problem with my cell in my pickup. I may be in the minority here with liking the sound of 2nd gen but take a little trip over to TDR.com. THere are TONS of people that prefer the sound of a "normal" volume cummins engine at idle. Don't get me wrong, I'm not someone that approves of the idiots buzzing up and down your street at all. I've noticed my sound tolerance has gone down over the last few years, it was a treat going from the Blazer with dual 40 series and headers to a nice and quiet Cummins Dodge.

To sum that up for me, from what I have heard, the Dmax and new PS isn't much louder than say the 8.1L BBC, or the Ford V10, if any louder at all. I like that you can tell I have a diesel under the hood just by hearing it and not having to look for Badging. Now that the weather is warmer, I get a kick when I see the PSD and DM guys rolling up their windows at stop lights next to me. :pimp:

BadDog,

You always like to bring up my K5 for some reason. This is towrig.com and my K5 has nothing in common with my Dodge besides both being a 4wd vehicle. If you would like to talk about what you don't like about my K5 do it over at CK5 like everyone else there or shoot me a PM. After reading your novel on page 4 I pick up a sence of "belittling" of someone doing something for looks. Don't get me wrong, I think it's silly to lift a 1/2 silverado to the moon on IROCKs or boggers but a lot of people I know that have HD pickups are not concerned with towing, they are lifting and modifying for two reasons....
1)To pull better at the pulls and put down lower E.T's
2) To make the truck look nicer. :bling:
You make points about how all that effects towing performance, like I said, towing means little to them. Now don't think I'm in the same catagory, I bought my pickup mainly for towing, more power, and good fuel mileage. I would like to lift my Dodge but only maybe 3" or so with 305's on 10" wide rims(maybe you now can see why I am tired of the K5 comments), that should hardly make a difference towing.
As far as the noise levels, if you are still interested in that refer to what I wrote to Shaggy.

Don't get me wrong either Russ, I like you and out of all the internet members that I know on any board, I respect you and a few other more than anyone. You are a smart, down to earth guy with a lot of experience in life and I look up to people like that, especially for how young I am. I don't however appreciate the "stick poking" sometimes. :poke:

And RJF and the cummins this and cummins that, almost evrybody I work with has either a DD S60 or Cat powered rigs. Most of us look down on the Cummins powered rigs. :stir: :pimp: Would you like an award? I'd like to have a CAT engine but that won't happen unless one of the three use CAT or I actually have so much money I can afford to stick one into a newer truck. I originally had the idea of using a CAT motor and converting a Crew Cab long bed 4x4 Chevy from the late 80's but after I figured out what it would cost plus the factor that you have a certain amount of unreliability there because it's a custom job, etc.....it was just cheaper to have a new truck fully loaded with leather and an engine almost as good as a CAT for less money, less labor, and a whole lot less time.

A great many TDR users would prefer to program out the split injection. It's a waste of fuel in addition to the sound issue Is this possible? That would pretty much seal the deal for me to get a 3rd gen in a few years if there could be a somewhat simple way to program out that multi injection deal and have it sound like a good 'ol cummins.

I was in/around a 05 I think duramax the other day and I couldn't even tell it was a diesel from standing around it. Thats just not for me.

That was one of the major selling points for me to buy a Dmax.
I also wanted to look at dodges but the wifey didn't want a Dodge. I like the look of the new Dodges but the quiet engine and auto in GM.

This is the classic case of what ever you prefer in a vehicle.

I have the 4" lifted 35" tire wearing tow rig with my old Ford. I just had the 460 and was getting tired of climbing up into it daily to go to work, clients couldn't get in easy etc. It also just didn't handle towing like the Dmax, Course I didn't know this till after I bought the new truck. The Dmax is much better handling mainly because it sits almost a foot lower.
BTW I know some long time Dodge fans that are looking at the GM trucks simply because they like them being quiet and the "nicer" interior. I also know people that only buy Fords because everything else sucks. They won't even think about looking or reading about another brand.

To each thier own.
I bought the GM for the quiet motor good auto and nice interior. The front suspension has it's down falls but it also has its' pluses. Just like Dodge and Ford have their positive and negative points.

Ok, sorry Bobby, I'll try to refrain from poking you any more, at least today... ;) My main goal was always just to contrast your "Dodge/Cummins is the winner hands down" tone and it just got out of hand.

And the reference to the K5 was just elaborating on your general outlook I was trying to describe, and the fact that it is consistent (IMO much better than some people who randomly bounce around not knowing what they like). And not belittling, just trying to clarify where we are each coming from. The only thing I do belittle in a way (in all honesty) is buying a "tow rig" but not to tow, and then putting big tires on it just for that "off-road look" and sacrificing safety/capability/longevity/and all the rest in the ballance. I fully support the right of anyone who wants to do it, but I think it's just as silly as the "Type R" ricers with big wings and ground effects bolted on, fart pipe exhaust, PepBoys seats with 5 points, and PVC "roll cages" in otherwise stock imports. But what I really find insane is buying a "tow rig" to "tow", and then doing that for looks with all the sacrifcies. Again, I support anyone's choices (within reason for safety), but that to me is insane, much like lifting the crap out of a "serious" off road that is going to be used off road to fit big tires, but then you can't really use the "big tires" because it will flip over due to the excessive CoG. (I know your's was not built for serious off road in the sense I mean, so this does not apply to you even though you may at first think so.) Anyway, that's why I threw all that stuff in. Normally I would probably have edited a bunch of that out before posting, but I had things that needed attention and didn't take the time I usually do.

I'm think I'm loosing interest in this anyway (I can hear the applause) so I'll just move on unless something else peeks my attention again.

RJF, have you even heard an '05 PSD? THey are louder than the '04s, I test drove some and was quite surprised at how loud they are, I actually wish they were quiter like the '04s were. In '03 and early '04 they were very quiet, but Ford has removed the pilot injection part of the fuel map for some reason, possibly because it played a role in the 6.0s problems, I'm not sure. Anywho, the 6.0s absolutely sound like diesel engines.

So, I guess I'll go to the dealer and figure it out for myself.:doah:


I rode in Jason's CTD Dually from Bakersfield to Rubicon pulling about 14K of 5th wheel and I was really impressed. The only experiance I have with diesels is that ride, the 1982 6.2 I had in my first Suburban, and the diesels we have in the Marine Corps.

All I'm going to do with this truck is tow once a month and drive it to work when I don't want to ride my motorcycle in. I'm not a big fan of the Fords becuase I'm a Chevy person but I'm not going to overlook them if they're a better choice for me. So far it sounds like the Ford and Dodge have the best price, Chevy has the best ride, and Dodge has an engine that's been reliable over the years. The small Dodge cab won't effect me at 68" and I do want a really nice riding truck with creature comforts. When I'm not on the trail I want to be comfortable. I want something that I can drive off the lot and not worry about doing any modifications to. Do you think the dealer would let me test drive with my Suburban in tow?:D

I forgot to ask what the factory torque ratings were for the big three.:confused:

I forgot to ask what the factory torque ratings were for the big three.:confused: It changes so frequently but I think currently the Cummins is set at 610, the DM is at 605, and the Ford (IIRC) is at 565 or 570.

I forgot to ask what the factory torque ratings were for the big three.:confused:

Dodges are 610 @ 1600 rpm

GM are 605 @ 1600 rpm

Ford are 570 @ 2000 rpm

Richard, remember, you rode in my dodge and the new Dodges have a 1/3 again more torque then mine :eek:

RJF, have you even heard an '05 PSD? THey are louder than the '04s, I test drove some and was quite surprised at how loud they are, I actually wish they were quiter like the '04s were. In '03 and early '04 they were very quiet, but Ford has removed the pilot injection part of the fuel map for some reason, possibly because it played a role in the 6.0s problems, I'm not sure. Anywho, the 6.0s absolutely sound like diesel engines.

That is exactly why, it was fords programming that was screwing everything up on that motor. Ford tried to reprogram it lord only knows how many times, and they still never got it right. For 05 they let International do the programming on the motor, and international went with what works, their tried and true programming. They havent had hardly any problems from the T366E in their medium duty trucks, and its the same motor, just differnt programming.

What's yours rated at Jason?

Fudge I dunno, like 15 maybe?

It's a gutless wonder compared to the new trucks but it still gets me everywhere I need to go with 15k behind it. BUT! The biggest plus to an 03 SO is it's ability to mod. Since it is so detuned from the factory you can bomb the hell out of them without doing much harm. The 05 HO's have very little room for mods before a new turbo, etc is needed.

I thought the '05s were supposed to respond very well to chips much like the DMax. Both have the high pressure common rail now, and with the VVT it should make some decent power with chip alone when they market catches up. Then again, I'm way out of the loop on that stuff these days.

The 05's have the exact same engine I do execpt they have different programming and maybe a different turbo, mines HPCR as well. Basically a 610 05 HO is my engine already boxed. So adding more is almost like stacking in a way. The new HO's run hotter to start with as well and keeping EGT's down is near impossible when towing with a box unless your running Twins.

You can throw a TST on an 05 and make tons of power for about 20 minutes then it blows up. You run a stock engine on level 10 on a TST and you will be out about 10 grand. But a TST aint your average box, it eats EDGE for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Oops, your right! Sorry to go so far OT...

Agreed

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