TowRig.com - Diesel Discussion and Tow Tech

I'm looking at used pickups. I don't think I can make the $$$ work for new.

I've found a 2003 Chevy 2500HD crew cab duramax/allison with 43,000 miles, equipped like I like it, including some bells and whistles I'd put on it if it didn't already have them, (bed liner, running boards, hard tonneau cover, brake controller), for $31,000. Nada says it should retail for somewhere around $35,000. Kelly is about in that range also.

Now in today's Sunday paper, near Minneapolis, I see an ad for a new 2005 Dodge 4x4 quad cab diesel, and the ad says that with all the discounts and rebates known to man I could get this one for $30,400.

I don't know if I qualify for all the Dodge rebates, but assuming I do, how foolish would I be if I passed it up just because I have my heart set on a a duramax/ally?

I don't know if I qualify for all the Dodge rebates, but assuming I do, how foolish would I be if I passed it up just because I have my heart set on a a duramax/ally?

If you have your heart set on a GM rig than thats what I would get. Honestly, I would probably go with the used GM if it doesn't have too many miles. A low mile slightly used truck makes tons more sence in my book, let someone else pay dealer price and have to break it in.

The GM is a nicer truck than the 3rd gen Dodges IMHO, their drivetrain isn't any better, if not as good, but the rest of the truck is superior to the Dodge. I have a 2nd gen myself and prefer it over a 3rd gen greatly.

You will kick yourself in the end if you go with the Dodge and wish it was a Dmax, at that point I don't think the extra $5K will mean much when you are already spending $30K, and when the new Dodge is ready to go out the door I bet it's every penny that the used GM costs and maybe then some.

Just get what you like. It all boils down to personal preference anyway. If you have your heart set on a Dmax, dont kick yourself for the rest of the time you own the dodge because you didnt buy the truck you wanted.

You will kick yourself in the end if you go with the Dodge and wish it was a Dmax, at that point I don't think the extra $5K will mean much when you are already spending $30K, and when the new Dodge is ready to go out the door I bet it's every penny that the used GM costs and maybe then some.

You mean $500.00 not $5k ($5000.00) RJF. waytogo ;)

Get whichever one you want more.. they are both good trucks.. although, Im very partial to my cummins ;)
Scott

Get whichever one you want more.. they are both good trucks.. although, Im very partial to my cummins ;)
Scott

But what about the Dodge that's wrapped around it? rotfl

I'd get the GM if that's what you're heart is set on. You'll forget about the money within a year but you'll have the truck for a long time. That $30k Dodge is likely not nearly as well equipped as the used GM anyways, plus you said that you're going to be buying the extras anyways.

It's doubtful you'll be able to get the Dodge for the advert price, those are mostly borderline bait-n-switch gimicks.

Like others said, get what you want and don't settle if you can avoid it. I've never been happy when "settling" for something, even when it seemed to make sense, and I always wished I had gone on and gotten the one I wanted...

I to would go w/ the dmax, and you get the the allison which is a much better tranny IMO

Just to avoid the "kicking yourself" game later, if the Dodge dealer is close, go down with the ad in hand and go to a salesman, point at the ad and say, "I want to see this truck. Don't jerk me around, I want to see THIS TRUCK." If they do anything other than say, "Right this way, sir," then you're outta there, and rest assured that the Chevy is the right way to go.

If they actually have that truck, which I think is doubtful, it is surely a stripper contractor model. I would go with the Dmax.

But what about the Dodge that's wrapped around it? rotfl

At least there isn't a Ford wrapped around anything he's considering. :D










;)

But what about the Dodge that's wrapped around it? rotfl

I'd get the GM if that's what you're heart is set on. You'll forget about the money within a year but you'll have the truck for a long time. That $30k Dodge is likely not nearly as well equipped as the used GM anyways, plus you said that you're going to be buying the extras anyways.

Thats funny.. Ive got about 20k trouble free, rattle free, comfortable miles on my truck, and I wouldn't buy anything else given the opportunity.. I like my dodge thanks :rolleyes:

Scott

I'll give u one reason to buy the dodge....your ready..... you sure you wanna hear this.....ok sit down to read this...... the chevy DMAX sucks and the allison is crap i know i had one for about 60k

just my .02

If it were me and the choices were chevy duramax or dodge cummins, Id go with the dodge.

FYI, a lot of people who think that they have a true allison are sadly mistaken and everyone who bought a chevy between 01-03 need to have thier tranny checked because chevy was using inferior overseas parts im them. Allison is actually sueing them as we speak, but of course its all hush hush. Do an internet search and you will see for yourself.

I'll give u one reason to buy the dodge....your ready..... you sure you wanna hear this.....ok sit down to read this...... the chevy DMAX sucks and the allison is crap i know i had one for about 60k

He's telling the truth, they are excellent trucks for the first 100k, but after that they go down hill fast!

just my .02

If it were me and the choices were chevy duramax or dodge cummins, Id go with the dodge.

FYI, a lot of people who think that they have a true allison are sadly mistaken and everyone who bought a chevy between 01-03 need to have thier tranny checked because chevy was using inferior overseas parts im them. Allison is actually sueing them as we speak, but of course its all hush hush. Do an internet search and you will see for yourself.

I haven't really heard of inferior parts. What I heard was that the "allison" trans in the GM's had more in common with a 4l80E than an actuall allison. With it, a 4L80, and an actuall allison taken apart on a table the guts looked more like the GM trans. Basically that since GM owns allison they stuck the badge on the side of the truck to sell more pickups and give this "heavy duty" image.

But what about the Dodge that's wrapped around it? rotfl Mine has never been back to the dealer since I took delivery on August 15, 2001. No warranty problems whatsoever, and it spends 90% of its time pulling our heavy 5th wheel (see signature).

Ya pays yore money and ya takes yore choice, I guess.... :rolleyes:

Rusty

Ok guys, how about some credible references? You can talk smack and make claims all day long, but I've never heard any of those Allison rumors.

I do know that the interior parts in the Allison are MUCH larger than ANY comparable transmission, including the 4L80E. The case design is completely different. IIRC, it is reportedly is being upgraded to a 6 speed which the 4L80E is not capable of. The 4L80E is generally not recommended for towing/hauling in OD, while the Allison equipped trucks do not even come with provision for OD lock out. I also recall reports from major builders, including Allison service techs, that talked about similarities between the 1k and 2k series. It's also the only auto trans out there in ANY light truck that can take the power levels much over stock without crying for mercy. With only a converter and "shift kit", it can handle 500+ hp and 800+ ft/lbs for regular trips down the quarter mile.

Of course most of this is from other forums just like this one, and my memory is not perfect, but I've done quite a bit of research into these trucks before and after buying mine, and I've never heard anything like this.

In short, IMO, and until some credible information backing up these claims is provided, I still believe the GM Allison is far and away the best AND strongest auto available in any light truck. This stikes me as very similar to the "inferior aluminum heads" and "hundreds of irreparable GM trucks on back lots" stories.

Oh, and my truck has yet to see a single repair, dealer or otherwise, since it was bought in '02. It's worked flawlessly since it was bought, and it has been running a "chip" since the middle of '03. That chip is always stays on the +90 setting, with brief forays into +120 land, and tows consistently at the +60 level. Other than the chip, this truck is totally stock and has never seen a wrench other than routine maintenance. Try that on your 4L80E, or any other light truck auto...

Ok guys, how about some credible references? You can talk smack and make claims all day long, but I've never heard any of those Allison rumors.

I do know that the interior parts in the Allison are MUCH larger than ANY comparable transmission, including the 4L80E. The case design is completely different. IIRC, it is reportedly is being upgraded to a 6 speed which the 4L80E is not capable of. The 4L80E is generally not recommended for towing/hauling in OD, while the Allison equipped trucks do not even come with provision for OD lock out. I also recall reports from major builders, including Allison service techs, that talked about similarities between the 1k and 2k series. It's also the only auto trans out there in ANY light truck that can take the power levels much over stock without crying for mercy. With only a converter and "shift kit", it can handle 500+ hp and 800+ ft/lbs for regular trips down the quarter mile.

Of course most of this is from other forums just like this one, and my memory is not perfect, but I've done quite a bit of research into these trucks before and after buying mine, and I've never heard anything like this.

In short, IMO, and until some credible information backing up these claims is provided, I still believe the GM Allison is far and away the best AND strongest auto available in any light truck. This stikes me as very similar to the "inferior aluminum heads" and "hundreds of irreparable GM trucks on back lots" stories.

Oh, and my truck has yet to see a single repair, dealer or otherwise, since it was bought in '02. It's worked flawlessly since it was bought, and it has been running a "chip" since the middle of '03. That chip is always stays on the +90 setting, with brief forays into +120 land, and tows consistently at the +60 level. Other than the chip, this truck is totally stock and has never seen a wrench other than routine maintenance. Try that on your 4L80E, or any other light truck auto...

I agree.

Ok guys, how about some credible references? You can talk smack and make claims all day long, but I've never heard any of those Allison rumors.

I do know that the interior parts in the Allison are MUCH larger than ANY comparable transmission, including the 4L80E. The case design is completely different. IIRC, it is reportedly is being upgraded to a 6 speed which the 4L80E is not capable of. The 4L80E is generally not recommended for towing/hauling in OD, while the Allison equipped trucks do not even come with provision for OD lock out. I also recall reports from major builders, including Allison service techs, that talked about similarities between the 1k and 2k series. It's also the only auto trans out there in ANY light truck that can take the power levels much over stock without crying for mercy. With only a converter and "shift kit", it can handle 500+ hp and 800+ ft/lbs for regular trips down the quarter mile.

Of course most of this is from other forums just like this one, and my memory is not perfect, but I've done quite a bit of research into these trucks before and after buying mine, and I've never heard anything like this.

In short, IMO, and until some credible information backing up these claims is provided, I still believe the GM Allison is far and away the best AND strongest auto available in any light truck. This stikes me as very similar to the "inferior aluminum heads" and "hundreds of irreparable GM trucks on back lots" stories.

Oh, and my truck has yet to see a single repair, dealer or otherwise, since it was bought in '02. It's worked flawlessly since it was bought, and it has been running a "chip" since the middle of '03. That chip is always stays on the +90 setting, with brief forays into +120 land, and tows consistently at the +60 level. Other than the chip, this truck is totally stock and has never seen a wrench other than routine maintenance. Try that on your 4L80E, or any other light truck auto...

Pull a gm or a true allison mechanic to the side and ask him, seek and you shall find....In the meantime i will find a couple of the artcles i found and post a link

btw, dont you think its kind of wierd that the allison mechanics cant, wont and dont work on gm's version in the pickups :dunno:

Actually, I have been to my local Allison shop and talked with them on several occasions. And that includes shop techs as well as counter jockeys. Funny, they mentioned nothing of the sort. I get my spin on filters (something 4L80Es or any other light tranny I've seen have never had), and internal filter, and priced/considered a deep pan while there. All these parts are carried in stock, on the shelf, along with a full compliment of rebuild parts. And they don't carry GM parts. I also talked to them about doing work there should I ever need it because most GM dealerships don't have what I would call truly qualified (and more importantly, experienced) Alli techs on staff. They said they would have no hesitation in working on it, and they had one in the shop then, but that GM warranty would obviously not apply.

One of the techs there also had a DMax/Alli that he had "tweaked" himself and he was very "pro-Allison" with regard to his 2500HD. If this were such a pathetic sham as you suggest, I would think he could figure that out. But instead, he congratulated me on a great choice and assured me that my transmission was by far the best available. I pretty much wrote that off as biased, but it sure does not sound like someone who sees the 1000 as a liability…

So that part of your statement is patently incorrect with regard to my local Allison shop and my experience.

Frankly, as I said before, this sounds like another sad rumor from a Ford/Dodge site just like the "aluminum heads" and others. No different than some of the trash I have seen on GM sites either. You may well be right, I'm no expert. But it will take a lot more than a vague statement of inferiority to hold water with most folks.

Bottom line is that (to my knowledge) there have been fewer problems/failures with GM Allisons than any other modern light truck auto out there. The C6 and Th400 *might* have been better, but were also much simpler with less to go wrong and they had no OD to add much additional stress. Sure, there are exceptions and "lemons" out there, but they have far fewer problems than you'll find elsewhere.

And it is generally accepted (even on Ford and Dodge sites) that the Allison can handle a lot more power stock than any other auto out there. Plus they can handle more ultimate power for far less money and effort than any other light truck auto out there.

AFAIK, the 1000 is a specially designed transmission built specifically for the light truck market, and even more specifically, for GM. But it IS an Allison that was designed and built by Allison.

BadDog you may be right yourself, I dont know for sure will all the he say she say crap everywhere. I do know that all of these trucks Ford, GM, Dodge are way overpriced from the jump. for the amount of money we spend on these rigs we should have a warranty of 200,000 miles at least!!! Well actually gm did increase thier injector warrenty to 2000,000 didnt they

Now that I can agree with completely.

BTW, I do have 200k miles on the injectors and 100k on the DMax.

It's doubtful you'll be able to get the Dodge for the advert price, those are mostly borderline bait-n-switch gimicks.

Like others said, get what you want and don't settle if you can avoid it. I've never been happy when "settling" for something, even when it seemed to make sense, and I always wished I had gone on and gotten the one I wanted...

I agree, probably can't get the Dodge for that price,maybe an ST ,no power equip,etc,,,go with your heart

Gee, our piece of crap Dodge :rolleyes: has 37k and has been taken up to where we ride our ATV's only about 50 times. The road up to the trails are all tiny washboards and the trucks buck like crazy on the road. Our 97 sub. and 96 tahoe squeak and rattle to no end on that road, but not a peep out of the ram.

I also heard that the Allison was not a 'true' Allison. :stir:

really no comparison, cummins have logged billions of miles in all types of trucks and other vehicles ,are tried and true, respected and requested by everyone who wants longevity and dependability , I have had 6 Dodges in my life , 3 were diesels and of them ,never had a problem mechanically, my 90 w-250 had well over 250000 miles on it ,still run like a top when I parted with it, still had original clutch, and is on it's next life with body restored lookin good by new owner,, gm'sare overpriced and over estimated, the duramax seems ok, never had one ,never will, as long as Dodge and Cummins partner in trucks ,I don't think you can find a better all around truck last will lastone heck of a long time

really no comparison, cummins have logged billions of miles in all types of trucks and other vehicles ,are tried and true, respected and requested by everyone who wants longevity and dependability , I have had 6 Dodges in my life , 3 were diesels and of them ,never had a problem mechanically, my 90 w-250 had well over 250000 miles on it ,still run like a top when I parted with it, still had original clutch, and is on it's next life with body restored lookin good by new owner,, gm'sare overpriced and over estimated, the duramax seems ok, never had one ,never will, as long as Dodge and Cummins partner in trucks ,I don't think you can find a better all around truck last will lastone heck of a long time

FORD 7.3 PSD all day long and twice on Sundayswaytogo

I also heard that the Allison was not a 'true' Allison. :stir:

Sorry man, this is not true.GM would not be so proud and brag about thier tranny if it were not a true Allison. That be like saying the Cummins in your dodge isnt a true Cummins.

Yep, the allison in the GM is real. I can remember when the the new dmax came out, someone on either the ford or dodge forum website started posting that rumor just to try to convince themself that thier current truck, ford or dodge, was better than the dmax/ally combo. You know how people are:doah: But anyways, its a true allison.waytogo

but.....this is true, the ford torqeshift is a "knockoff of the allison" almost a carbon copy!

really no comparison, cummins have logged billions of miles in all types of trucks and other vehicles ,are tried and true, respected and requested by everyone who wants longevity and dependability , I have had 6 Dodges in my life , 3 were diesels and of them ,never had a problem mechanically, my 90 w-250 had well over 250000 miles on it ,still run like a top when I parted with it, still had original clutch, and is on it's next life with body restored lookin good by new owner,, gm'sare overpriced and over estimated, the duramax seems ok, never had one ,never will, as long as Dodge and Cummins partner in trucks ,I don't think you can find a better all around truck last will lastone heck of a long time
i think you're forgeting about all those izusu box trucks that are always driving around... those are duramax motore pretty much. and those have been around for a long time.

GM's are not the only trucks overpriced, all of em are way overpriced!!!

GM's are not the only trucks overpriced, all of em are way overpriced!!!

you got that right bro!

I'm looking at used pickups. I don't think I can make the $$$ work for new.

I've found a 2003 Chevy 2500HD crew cab duramax/allison with 43,000 miles, equipped like I like it, including some bells and whistles I'd put on it if it didn't already have them, (bed liner, running boards, hard tonneau cover, brake controller), for $31,000. Nada says it should retail for somewhere around $35,000. Kelly is about in that range also.

Now in today's Sunday paper, near Minneapolis, I see an ad for a new 2005 Dodge 4x4 quad cab diesel, and the ad says that with all the discounts and rebates known to man I could get this one for $30,400.

I don't know if I qualify for all the Dodge rebates, but assuming I do, how foolish would I be if I passed it up just because I have my heart set on a a duramax/ally?


My experience: never, EVER, buy a used diesel pickup. The prices on used are so close to new that you'll spend MORE in the long run fixing what the previous owner broke.

The Dodge is a better truck than the GM. Sorry folks. My wife's '00 Silverado had SO MANY issues when we traded it on the new Ram diesel that it wasn't funny. Plastic parts were rotting apart... tailgate trim fell off in my hand... seats were GONE after less than 6 years and we're NOT heavy people... and I suspect coolant leaking into the oil. Carpet faded significantly.

My advice. Get the Dodge, with warranty. You won't regret having a brand new Ram diesel with full warranty.

Check out Lou Fusz Dodge in St. Louis. They gave me a hell of a deal. $11,000 off MSRP, if I recall, through some special deals. Maybe they can give you a similar deal... tell them Mike Lewis sent you--I'm a satisfied customer. Salesman was Bill Miller.

I would have walked out the door with a very nicely equipped Ram 3500 SLT, six speed, Cummins, extra airbags, power seat, seat storage, folding seats, and some other options for about $32k before tax. They were about $4000 less than the best deal my local dealer would give me.

I added the $2000 nav system and the jake brake to the truck for another $1700 or so. Got more equipment than I'd planned for at about the price I wanted to pay. The other 2 manufacturers couldn't even come close.


Mike

My experience: never, EVER, buy a used diesel pickup. The prices on used are so close to new that you'll spend MORE in the long run fixing what the previous owner broke.

The Dodge is a better truck than the GM. Sorry folks. My wife's '00 Silverado had SO MANY issues when we traded it on the new Ram diesel that it wasn't funny. Plastic parts were rotting apart... tailgate trim fell off in my hand... seats were GONE after less than 6 years and we're NOT heavy people... and I suspect coolant leaking into the oil. Carpet faded significantly.

My advice. Get the Dodge, with warranty. You won't regret having a brand new Ram diesel with full warranty.

Check out Lou Fusz Dodge in St. Louis. They gave me a hell of a deal. $11,000 off MSRP, if I recall, through some special deals. Maybe they can give you a similar deal... tell them Mike Lewis sent you--I'm a satisfied customer. Salesman was Bill Miller.

I would have walked out the door with a very nicely equipped Ram 3500 SLT, six speed, Cummins, extra airbags, power seat, seat storage, folding seats, and some other options for about $32k before tax. They were about $4000 less than the best deal my local dealer would give me.

I added the $2000 nav system and the jake brake to the truck for another $1700 or so. Got more equipment than I'd planned for at about the price I wanted to pay. The other 2 manufacturers couldn't even come close.


Mike

Ive had just the opposite experience actually. I recommend buying a truck 2 years older. SOOOOOO much cheaper than brand new. When you buy a brand new truck, the value drops as soon as you drive it off the lot. If you can afford a new one, go for it, but there is nothing wrong with buying used.

Ive had just the opposite experience actually. I recommend buying a truck 2 years older. SOOOOOO much cheaper than brand new. When you buy a brand new truck, the value drops as soon as you drive it off the lot. If you can afford a new one, go for it, but there is nothing wrong with buying used.

My experience has been quite the opposite. I priced a used F-350, 99 model, in 2002. Dealer wanted $24k. I worked them down to $20k. The truck was an XLT, manual transmission, 2 wheel drive. Out of bumper-to-bumper warranty, 60,000 miles, and an unknown history.

If a fellow can find a good used truck for a reasonable price, more power to him. But look at the complexity of these trucks and think about the real cost of ownership, used vs new, if you're no longer covered by warranty. If you're in the right market, perhaps used trucks are a bit cheaper than I've found in the places I've been. But is a used truck purchase really worth the maintenance risk if the truck you bought wasn't treated well and starts to fail?

A lot comes down to one's philosophy. I bought new because I intend to, and will, keep my truck for 10+ years. Depreciation means little to me. Some folks can afford to buy new every 3-5 years, and I support buying used works fine for them. I don't have the time to worry about someone else's headache, and the thought of having a vehicle with a known history, a 100,000 mile warranty on the engine, plus an extended warranty if desired, means a great deal to me.

I hear what your saying, If you can buy new, by all means do. Im just saying buying used is not always bad. We've bought 3 used diesel pickups in the past and have had no problems. And Ironiclly, the one truck we did by new has been in the shop quit a bit, but like you've stated, thanks to warrenty it hasnt cost us a dime. Yet.

I bought used, and never looked back. Got a 2 year warranty along with my purchase for almost $15K less than the first owner of my truck paid.

Another thing with used trucks is some people don't want the latest thing on the market. I wanted a Cummins that sounded like a Cummins, and wasn't a big fan of the huge front ends of the newer Rams. I wanted a good used 2nd gen sport much more than a zero mile new 3rd gen.

At least there isn't a Ford wrapped around anything he's considering. :D










;)

easy big fella :D
i would go see ford and talk turkey, drive up in the test ride dodge i bet they will come close.
go with the best deal for you, al lthree are going to have their issues some just more than others, dodges sheetmetal is ugly to some, gm is plushier, ford is a pulling machine but a bit rough edged.
someday they wil get together and take th best of all three i mean two, :D :stir:

easy big fella :D
i would go see ford and talk turkey, drive up in the test ride dodge i bet they will come close.
go with the best deal for you, al lthree are going to have their issues some just more than others, dodges sheetmetal is ugly to some, gm is plushier, ford is a pulling machine but a bit rough edged.
someday they wil get together and take th best of all three i mean two, :D :stir:
Technically.... the New LBZ is the pulling machine, Dodge is the torque and racing master, and the Ford is trying to build a better motor to compete, the 6.4.:D

The 6.0 is the reason I went gas not diesel would have liked to have gotten a V10 with a 6 speed but I was running out of time and found a really great deal on a truck with 14K.I must say I'm happy with my 5.4 while I lack alot of the power a diesel flaunts my truck gets me back from point a to point b just fine with what I carry.

Tom, what did you decide?

I started shopping about a year and a half ago and just like you was looking at used GM 2000 to 2002 trucks. I quickly decided buying a used diesel is much riskier than buying a used gasser. You pay more up front and risk much more expensive repairs if the previous owner abused or neglected the truck.

Between injectors on the dmax and piston slap on the gassers I decided to go new. The GM products were too car like (can you even find a GM pickup without a center console?) and too expensive, as well as the least attractive from a styling standpoint, so I wound up with a new Dodge. I still have a soft spot for GM, but it seems they have had their head up their a$$ for the last decade or so.