TowRig.com - Diesel Discussion and Tow Tech

OK, let's say you could have any Diesel engine choice (CTD, PSD, DMax) in any truck you wanted, what would be your choice for pulling a 7% grade at lets say 75 MPH? What did you choose and why? :popcorn:

Where's the Cat option? :) A 3208 in a Chevy 3500 would pull nicely I think.

Not currenty available, sorry.

Dmax :popcorn:

Why=
Hmmm, cuz I own one waytogo
The way this engine throws my rig forward I don't see it being an issue, uless I was severly overloaded waytogo

Personally I think any of them would do fine... :)

Cummins, the stead fast torque of an inline 6.

Where's the Cat option? :) A 3208 in a Chevy 3500 would pull nicely I think.
Hah, 3208's are big and heavy. THe newer C7, 3126, or older mechanical 3116 would be a better choice.

Whichever one has all my chit hooked up behind it. :D Right now that would be a Dmax.

If it was also to be a daily driver, exactly what I own now, 2500HD DMax/Alli CC SWB 4x4. Wouldn't change a thing. :D

If it was to "Hot Shot" or primarily just for long haul towing, exactly what I have now, but I would probably go with the Cummins for fuel mileage and longevity, but in the same GM chassis with the Alli, or maybe an old (ha, that sounds weird) NV5600 and HD after market clutch.

Give me a 2nd gen 12v CTD and a deep wallet and I will blow the doors clean off ANY other diesel out there......Keep your 610's.....keep your Durascraps with fueling boxes stacked to the moon and keep your 6.0's (I won't even get into those! )...........I'll take a Piers Stoopid P7100 add some sick twins and o-ring a ported head and blow the rollers off the dyno AND smoke a Mustang on the drive home.....and for towing?....Well, does anyone here think there is another motor as capable of generating as flat a torque curve?.....I am not a brand loyal person.....Ford makes a great truck and if they put a CTD in it, I would even consider buying one - but they don't, so I'll have to stay with a Dodge as long as the CTD is in it.

As it has been simply put many times on other forums, "comparing a 12v CTD to any other diesel is comparing apples to oranges"......couldn't have said it better myself.

There. That's better.....had to get that off my chest.

Hmm.....sounds a little aggressive?! :stir: but this IS the brand wars forum, right? rotfl :stir:

From what I've seen, "flat torque curve" and "Cummins" don't belong in the same sentence unless the topic of that sentence happens to be "lack of". In fact, one of the leading arguements for V8s, other than smoother running, is the flatter torque curves. I'll give you the "deep pockets" resulting in highest ultimate power in the CTD, but that flat "torque curve" won't fly unless you know something I don't...

http://www.edgeproducts.com/images/DC_ChevyJuiceTRQchart.jpg


http://www.edgeproducts.com/images/DodgeJuiceTRQchart.jpg


Granted, these are not stock curves, but I would definitely want the Cummins torque curve over the Dmax. They are both relatively flat, except at the high end for the Cummins (where the engine won't be operated at much), and the Dmax as it lugs down. I don't know about you, but I want an engine with a flat torque curve and good torque below 2000 rpm. The Dmax may be relatively flat, but the torque falls off rapidly below 2000 rpm and obviously that is not well suited for towing.

From what I've seen, "flat torque curve" and "Cummins" don't belong in the same sentence unless the topic of that sentence happens to be "lack of". In fact, one of the leading arguements for V8s, other than smoother running, is the flatter torque curves. I'll give you the "deep pockets" resulting in highest ultimate power in the CTD, but that flat "torque curve" won't fly unless you know something I don't...

It flys for me, so I'll tell you what I know....

What I refer to as "flat" means the torque peak is reached very early in the rpm and that level is maintained all the way up to, or close to the hp peak.....to suggest that a Duramax or a 6.0 is capable of matching this curve is silly......this is why the V8's are very strong when unloaded but slow down noticably more than a CTD when loaded down very heavy - the V8's torque curve is on a steady rise in relation to rpm....the torque and hp curves are noticably similar and it is no coincidence that peak hp and peak torque occur not too far apart on the V8's.......Look at the CTD hp/torque relation....the curves are very different and peaks occur quite a distance apart....

Remeber: torque is what moves you - it's a measure of force being applied. Hp is merely a calculation of torque and rpm and does not represent a force measured. Hp is simply the # that tells you fast (rpm) the torque can be applied......Bottom line: if you can make more torque sooner, the flatter your curve will be (because the slope is minmized right from the very beginning) and the more power you have sooner to pull harder.

CatDieselPower:
Wow, that CTD graph is way different (and much better) from what I've seen in the past (at least what I recall). It has been a couple of years since I was comparing, so maybe that's just the 600, or maybe it's evolving technology. Either way, I'm impressed with what Edge did with the 600! Frankly, I didn't know they had achieved nearly that much on the CTD with only a "chip". waytogo I guess I will have to revise my view of the DMax as the cheapest way to get "entry level" bombing performance.

Anyone got stock graphs on the earlier stock CTD? IIRC, when I was shopping back in '02, the DMax stock graph rose quickly to around 1800 and then was amazingly flat all the way to red line. Almost the same as "stock" shown on the graph above, but I thought I remembered the peak closer to 1800. I wonder if that is a change for the LLY vs. my LB7 or if my memory playing tricks on me. And acording to my memory, the Dodge was comparatively "spikey" rising relatively early then dropping more sharply than the CTD "stock" line in the graph above. In fact, I seem to recall it falling fairly rapidly after around 2600 or so. <confused>

CTD Nut:
I don't think it's silly at all to claim the DMax curve is flatter than the CTD. The word "flat" is not ambiguous or typically regarded as open to interpretation. If you look at the graph above, IMO, to claim the CTD stock curve is somehow "flatter" than the DMax curve is "silly". Quite simply, based on the graph above, the stock DMax holds a far flatter torque curve over a broader rpm range than the 600 CTD. Granted, the 600 graph above looks better than my memory (which could be faulty) of the earlier versions, but it is still far from "flat", particularly compared to the DMax.

Also, what is the red line on a CTD? I seem to recall it much lower than the span of that graph. <shrug>

And I'm well aware of the difference between HP and Torque. As far as the lower rpm torque peak of the CTD, yes, I'll grant you it does have it's advantages. I never claimed otherwise. But when I'm running heavily loaded at 75-85 up a 6% grade or better in OD at around 2200 rpm, I'm rather happy with my DMax torque curve thank you. If it does start to bog down a bit, the Alli will shift down and bring the rpms back into the mid to upper 2k range. Same thing for a manual, you shift down instead of lugging it so. Of course that does account for some of the CTD's better fuel mileage.

As for getting things moving, it's just a matter of putting the engine in it's preferred rpm range and keeping it close to the peak without falling off the sides. With the more rounded CTD curve you have a more narrow band of "ideal" where as the DMax can roam over a wider range while holding closer to "peak". The only time the lower peak really makes much difference is with a manual and the 0-20mph "getting things moving", so the DMax may take an extra second or two till it can build to the 1800-2k range. But I really couldn't care less about that considering how small the impact is to over all driving experience. Bottom line is that the V8s provide a better over-all driving experience, with the CTD having a small performance advantage for strict towing. The CTD also has a disadvantage when equipped with the 4 speed auto due to it's less flat/broad torque curve and the 4 speeds reduced ability (compared to 5 speed auto or 6 speed manual) to manage engine rpm.

Don't get me wrong, I admire the CTD a great deal. Even more so now that I see that graph of the 600 posted from Edge! And as I said before, if my truck was a "hot shot" rig or Snow Bird hauling an RV around 9 months out of the year, I would prefer the CTD to the DMax. But I get really tired of all the "CTD is best!" chest thumping. Each is superior in different categories and each buyer simply needs to figure what is best for them.

And, as you said, this IS the "Brand War" forum. :D

CatDieselPower:
Oh, and one more thing, the stock curve is shown on those graphs. And if you notice, they both drop off rapidly below 2200 on the stock line. In fact, the numbers are rather similar except the DMax has if flat beyond 2200 where the CTD starts dropping off at an ever increasing rate (though not exactly falling off as I recalled).

But I'm still BLOWN AWAY with what they've done with low rpm power with the Juice for the 600! Wow, I wish they could bring up the DMax bottom end like that! As I said before, it wouldn't make that much difference for me towing (IMO), but it would be a big help for gas mileage and keeping it from dropping out of OD when heavily loaded. Sadly, the "chipped numbers" for the DMax are not nearly as impressive in "curve" as those for the 600 (assuming the diffs and tranny gears can keep the rpms from climbing much past 2600 or so).

Yea, I just noticed that, it's definitely hard to see. It looks like the Cummins still rules at 2000 and below, where IMO it is really important for towing since it would obviously be easier to get the rig moving, and downshifting wouldn't be needed as frequently. From 2000 up, they are very similar, and from 2000 down the Cummins rules, I still think the Cummins has the better curve.

By the way, this is Tyler (BlueBlazer62) from CK5, so you can call me by name if you like waytogo

I won't go as far as others and say the Cummins is all superior of the other two diesels but I will say that I think it's inline 6 configuration is superior over a V8 diesel design. The V8 may have better top end and give off slightly less vibration at idle but my ISB hardly ever sees RPM's above 2300RPM's or so anyway, unless I completely floorboard it and is allowed to reach nearly 3K. As far as the vibrations....what vibration really? I will definantly say it's not as smooth as a mild gas engine but the small amount of vibration doesn't bother me or any of my passengers, infact, one would have to actually be thinking about it to even notice.

Like I said, I'm not going to say any engine is superior because each have their advantages as well as drawbacks but I'll take an inline 6 ANYDAY over a V8.

Tyler: :D
I wouldn't go nearly so far as to say "it rules" below 2000, but it is clearly higher. Looks like maybe 300 vs. 325 at 1800, but hard to say at that scale. Given how readily I can get heavy loads moving (usually rapidly pulling away from traffic at a light even when I'm loaded) and how little mine downshifts on the open road, even with steep grades, I just don't see the low rpm as being a clear factor. However, it is frustrating that on a steep grade, if I drop below 70(ish) it shifts down and it's pretty much impossible to get it to shift back up till I'm over the top. It's not a problem till some nimrod pulls into the "fast lane" because he can maybe manage 50 and is "trapped" behind someone who can only manage 45. :rolleyes: Once it shifts down I can hold most any speed I want (subject to the limiter) on any grade and the EGTs go way down but so does the fuel mileage. <shrug> I don't see it as a big deal, particularly since I spend well over 90% of the time unloaded, but that's just me and my preferences. Like I said, the CTD has advantages, but for a general use, multi-purpose rig that sees most of it's time unloaded, I just don't see that it has any clear overall advantage over the V8s. And in fact, it has a few distinct disadvantages for some people.

Bobby:
As you say, it's a matter of preference. You're used to it and I'm sure I could get used to it easily enough too. But I do find it distinctly noticeable when I get in a CTD being used to my DMax. One other thing the CTD wins hands down on is it's simplicity. The V8s are much more complex and often more difficult to work on.

Either way, "to each their own", and I'm glad we have the choices we have in modern diesels. :D

It looks more like 300 vs. 350 at 1800, but like you said, it is hard to tell. If you were to extrapolate from that graph below 1800 rpm, the Cummins would in fact "rule" I believe. The Dmax is obviously dropping in torque at a much faster rate. I guess since you drive an auto, its not as noticable because your Allison will just downshift before it lugs, but with a manual trans, the torque below 2000 rpm is VERY important IMO.

At the risk of "beating this to death", if you look at the slope of the CTD graph near 1800 vs the slope of the DMax, unless my eyes deceive me, I do believe the CTD is dropping faster, even though at that point it is still higher than the DMax by some margin. If you extrapolate from say 1800 to 1900 to estimate the curve below 1800, I think you'll find that the CTD will actually drop below the DMax by around 1600-1700 or so. :D I really wish we had better (real) figures to go on, but I lack the interest to search them out. :D

One other thing the CTD wins hands down on is it's simplicity. The V8s are much more complex and often more difficult to work on.


I'll agree with that. I recently saw what lays underneith the hood of a late model GMC and it was so jam packed in there I couldn't even hardly find the turbo. :doah: I have lots of spare room under the hood of my Ram. :D

Well, I will still stick by my original post.....The torque of the CTD has much shorter slope to peak torque than the Dmax and is therefore flatter....That graph is NOT condusive to a properly bombed 12v.....As far as losing higher end torque, this is very easily changed on 12v compared the 600 CR - they can rev quite high if you like.....but one of the nice things about having all that torque right at your highway cruising rpm is that, unlike the V8's, you often don't have to down shift (or not nearly as often) to maintain speed on a grade as OD already puts you in the fattest part of your curve.....the V8's typically have to down shift to get them back into the fattest part of their curve. I have very little experience with the CR CTD but I can tell you the Cummins engineers are working hard to keep the torque curve DOWN! and they are bumping the hp up by simply adding high end rpm......it is interesting to note that a typical 12v pumping 325 hp is making close to 800 ft/lbs of torque! Bump it up to around 400 hp and it will generate between 950 - 1000 ft/lbs....This is normal and easily done with a 12v CTD on a tight budget.

My point is if you peak at 800 ft/lbs, do you really care that it falls off to 725 ft/lbs at your hp peak?.....I would think not! The seat of the pants perception is that the curve does not fall off regardless of what the dyno # is.....

All this is, as it has been mentioned is preference.....does the Dmax tow well? - of course it does!...but the poll asked what do you think is the BEST motor for towing a grade and my opinion is that it is a 12v CTD....

IMG]Rod and piston comparo[/IMG] This pic shows the differences between rods and pistons....the rods are self-explanatory - another reason why the CTD is designed in the true medium/heavy truck engine fashon for generating large torque #'s and having unmatched longevetiy....

The pistons also tell a story.....notice the very long, full skirt on the CTD piston - a typical diesel piston that virtually eliminates the piston rocking/slapping in the bore which promotes long ring life and excellent sealing. The V8 skirts must be heavily clearanced to accomadate the much shorter rod (poor rod ratio) and tighter crank clearance.....durability suffers as a result.

Im so damn sick of that picture. It shows absolutely nothing, and heres why.

The ISB has a displacement of 360 cubic inches, rounded up for the sake of simplicity from 359.5. The 6.0 PSD is 366 cubic inches, and the Duramax is roughly 402. The ISB displaces 60 cubic inches per cylinder, the PSD 45.75 and the Duramax 50.3. Hmm, what do you know, the ISB displaces signifigantly more per cylinder, so it has more stress on it every cycle. The PSD and Duarmax have it spread out more, with less stress on each connecting rod, so why in the hell would they need a rod the same size as the ISB?

Second, it only shows the rods from one view. What it doesnt show is how much thinner the PSD rod is than the duramax and ISB, or that the PSD rod has a much shallower and less pronounced I to it.

Durability suffering because of the piston design? There are way more powerstrokes out there in pickup trucks than there are cummins, and they hold up just as well. Dont forget that the T444E and T366E's were designed and built as a medium duty engine as well, and get worked in the medium duty world just as hard as the 6bt/ISB. The powerstrokes are damn good motors, and have proven themselves as such. Its not International's fault ford cant work a computer and screwed the 6.0's up. No, they dont lend themselves to bombing as well as the 6bt's do, but so what? They dont have stupidly oversized injection pumps like the 6bt's with the P7100's do, so they are limited by fuel delivery.

All that picture is good for is making Dodge owners feel better about themselves because their rod is bigger. Never mind that it HAS to be bigger due to more stress on each rod.

Dont get me wrong, the cummins is a great motor, i still plan on swapping a Cummins into my bowtie, but that pic is just plain stupid to use as an argument as to why yours is better.

Interesting perspective and I see your point but the extra load the piston and rod have to manage on the CTD is not proportional to the difference in strength and bearing surface area.....also, even though the stroke is longer on the CTD, the rod lengths are still not proportional to each other in relation to the stroke - the CTD still manages a better rod ratio.....and since we are arguing about bottom end strength I prefer to have 7 huge main bearings supporting 6 cylinders....having a individual rod journal for each rod is much better than having one rod journal sharing 2 rods.....each rod journal on the CTD holds the load and reciprocating mass of only 1 rod and piston, though heavier, it is still much less weight.

I have to agree with Joez, that picture is worthless. A 6 cylinder engine is going to have bigger pistons and rods than an 8 cylinder engine of the same size. :doah:

but the poll asked what do you think is the BEST motor for towing a grade and my opinion is that it is a 12v CTD....
Why a 12v? From what I have found, the ONLY place a 12v engine accells in is that it has a P7100 pump. Besides that what makes it so great? The later 24v ISB has a better turbo, better head, improved durability to the block, and centered injectors.

Of course the 12v rules at the extreme end of diesel performance but for most of us that want to make moderate power numbers I would say the 24v version wins hands down.
A bad VP44 you say? Add a F.A.S.S. system to a fresh VP44 and no worries with moderate power numbers( were talking up to 500HP or so) and the best part is the ability to turn down power and adjust it on the fly. 12v's are great at the strip and at the pulls....but give me a 24v anyday for REAL day in and day out driving so I can simply "turn" the power on when I want it. waytogo

Oh yeah, Cops just love a bombed 12v's....all they have to do is follow the smoke. :doah:

The graphs of "bombed" CTD or DMax engines varies, which is why I limited my discussion to "stock". Even though many of us do "turn up the wick", most do not due to lack of knowledge, interest, or fear of warranty issues. Due to all the different curves and trade offs, I think limiting to stock is reasonable unless someone wants to post a good selection of the possible dyno graphs for us to compare and contrast. Otherwise, any discussion of "bombed" curves is just words since I can't remember the details of what I have seen, much less what I have not. :D


but one of the nice things about having all that torque right at your highway cruising rpm is that, unlike the V8's, you often don't have to down shift (or not nearly as often) to maintain speed on a grade as OD already puts you in the fattest part of your curve.....the V8's typically have to down shift to get them back into the fattest part of their curve.

I believe I already stated that, at least for the DMax, the "fattest part of the curve" is right at or below my interstate cruising speed of 75(ish) which does work rather well. However, if it were not Interstate speeds then yes, I would need to down shift where a Cummins might well torque on through. But that really does not change my very first statement. For a multi-use vehicle I feel the DMax wins, but if all I had to do was tow heavy or pull the hypothetical grade mentioned in the thread topic, then I would go with CTD. I don't dispute you on that point, but rather on some of your choices (including poor choice of words that were IMO misleading) for supporting your point.

it is interesting to note that a typical 12v pumping 325 hp is making close to 800 ft/lbs of torque! Bump it up to around 400 hp and it will generate between 950 - 1000 ft/lbs....This is normal and easily done with a 12v CTD on a tight budget.

I'm not CTD expert, but from what I've read and what I've been told by CTD aficionados who do it, this is also not true. Well, actually it would be more accurate to say that it is not possible based on how most of us would define "tight budget". I could say more but it would be pure "hear say" so I'll leave it at that, and obviously I could be wrong since what I already said was just "hear say" too. :D

I won't even get into that picture. Joe has already covered that better than I would have. waytogo But I will also agree that the CTD clearly has the stronger bottom end and a clear history of excellent longevity.

Anyway, take care. And don't take this personal, I love a good debate, as long as it's in the right forum. rotfl

No, no...I would never take this personally....I would only reserve this type of "discussion" to this forum, though.....I like a good debate too!....I always end up learning something about the "other" guys diesels! :) .......

As far as not believing the torque #'s, well, most guys that don't own CTD's tend not to believe it....as far as CTD aficiondos go, you are talking to one now and while those hp vs torque #'s seem high, it is quite doable with a 12v.....24v's are another story - you typically don't see 1000 ft/lbs until about 475 hp...This is because torque and hp peaks occur higher in the curve on a 24v than a 12v. If you want to see a 450 hp 12v CTD built on a tight budget, then look at the 94 in my sig....it weighs 6680 lbs with me in it and runs a 14.0 @ 101 mph - just got to the track last weekend.....no dyno #'s but if you do the calculations for hp with weight and mph and/or ET you'll see it makes over 450 hp, though I don't think with my particular setup that it actually does....

24v's have a better cylinder head?...Why, because there are 2 more valves? Flow bench #'s would indicate that a 12v flows better.....that said, the 24v head is hardly a limiting factor for power, but yes, the pump is the limiting factor.....is it easier to make big torque with the 24v?...Yes....Is it more exspensive to do so?...Yes....If you are on a budget the 12v will cost considerably less to pump up.....I have done it.

I like 24v's too...I have one of each, so I feel I can make some accurate comparisons in their performance and what it takes to make specific power #'s.

Adding a $600 fuel lift pump (FASS) makes the VP44 as reliable as a P7100? :confused: ....I will have to disagree with that statement.....The VP has several other reliability issues other than worrying about maintaining a certain injector pump inlet pressure!....98-02 2nd gen 24v's have the SAME 12cm HX35's that the 12v's did (other than the 00-02 autos with the little 9cm HY35) - what makes the 24v turbo better when they are identical?
The VP is a good IP but if you are suggesting that it is as reliable and tunable as a P7100, you are wrong. As for day to day driving, my 12v drives just as well as my 24v.....and as far as cops go, I guess you are not aware of the valet switch that is installed in the AFC on the P7100 that will cut the power back at the flip of a switch......besides, a bombed 24v pumps out just as much black smoke if the fueling has been set up accodingly.

BTW, BadDog, what was my poor choice of words?......I'm certainly not intentionally trying to be misleading to make my point.

Sorry to be so long replying, I've been on conference calls all day and while I did read a bit, I couldn't dedicate much brain power to replying coherently. :D

As I said earlier, depends on what "tight budget" means. To me that means well under $1k for "toys". And I don't think you can get those numbers and remain dependable even on a 12V without some significant coin, though I'm totally prepared to be wrong. However, low 14 second times are totally possible (according to reports) on a 7500 lb CC DMax with nothing more than a "Hot Juice" or "200VA" (or a little more change for a TST box, but trying to stay sub $1k here) a straight pipe (or straight through high-flow muffler). Total cost around $500-$700max unless I'm wrong about current pricing. And to make the Allison live under that day in and day out, a Transgo kit with your choice of single clutch converters. Not only would the CTD require more to get to that level (talking 12V or 24V here, although the 600 seems to respond to the box as well or better than the DMax), but the auto trans will need more than just a shift kit and converter. Of course that's on the strip, not towing, but those mods (within reason) also provide dependable tow rigs capable of a wide variety of fun and function.

I gotta say though, I do believe that the 12V would be my choice for performance for the reasons listed, but I surely wouldn't turn down a 24V for multi-purpose use, and I can't get over that Edge graph of the 600, I had no idea it was responding so well.

Oh, another thing. Can anyone easily provide torque curves for the later stock 12V and 24V engines? I seem to remember them being much more "peaky" and also peaking at a lower rpm than the stock curve shown for the 600. I swear I recall a fairly dramatic peak around 1800-1900 with a fairly sharp fall off beyond something like 2400 rpm for those, but maybe my memory is exaggerating it. <shrug>

Same for the LB7, maybe even including Edge "chip" curves too. After further thought I do seem to recall that people were saying that the chips on the LLY were typically providing higher peak power but more fall off than the LB7s. Basically, I don't recall the chipped curves falling off quite that badly when I was comparing the various boxes when I bought "The Juice". Again, maybe it's just "old age"…

And finally, the "poor choice of words" was specifically refereeing to the statement of the CTD having a "flatter torque curve". Because different mods can result in quite different shapes and numbers on the curves, sacrificing peak for width and such, it only makes sense to consider stock IMO. And the stock CTD curve is anything but "flat" by any reasonable definition that I can see. It climbs rather rapidly when the chart starts at 1800rpms, has a clear peak at around 2300 or so with around a 150ft/lb gain, and then begins a relatively gradual but steady descent to around 28-2900 where it turns a fair bit more sharply downward to end at around 3300 rpms with about the same torque it it had at 1800 rpms. On the other hand, the DMax starts at 1800 with only slightly less torque than the CTD 600 and a less steep slope, peaks also with a roughly 150 fl/lb gain around 2200, and the rest of the curve looks almost like someone used a ruler to draw an almost perfectly level/flat line off the right side of the chart. Even the chipped curves on the DMax are much smoother and therefore consistent, though I will concede that the chipped CTD 600 curves are much nicer in pretty much every way except maybe for drag racing (hp being torque per unit time and all that).

Anyway, I was not saying you were trying to mislead or anything of the sort. It's just the use of the term "flatter" to categorize the CTD torque curve as superior to the DMax curve defies my understanding. :D

Yes, I do believe that the VP44 is almost, if not as reliable as a P7100 when it is kept supplied with plenty of cool fuel, with lower power numbers of course. As for the cylinder head, a 24v head holds the injector inthe center of the cylinder and I have heard that they do flwo slightly better.

The turbo may be the same model as the early 24v's but my 2001 spools up MUCH faster than all the 12v trucks I have ridden in.

You can't argue the tuneability factor, with just a simple box you can have 25 levels of performance at the touch of a button with a 24v electronic engine. I have never heard of some sort of valet mod switch, not even at TDR.com. Regardless, you are either in "valet" mode or are bombed at what ever the level of the truck is set at. With a 24v you could set it at basically any level you want. I'll take the adjustability over a slightly better IP pump for sure.


Plus, we have a prettier valve cover. :D rotfl

Ok, I'll give ya the nod to the valve cover!... :D ;)

Valet switch kits are available from Piers, Haisley and others - not uncommon.

And yes, for ease of adjustabilty, the 24v gets the nod....I would rather push a button instead of popping the hood and sliding the plate anyday! :D

Don't know what to comment on about the turbo spool up?!?! :confused: ...I mean heck, that is why the MAD ECM is so popular on 24v's - to stop the horrible off-idle defueling that is part of the factory ECM programming and kills the chance of good spool-up!....The defuel mode is most pronounced on the 00-01's even with the little 9cm HY's on the auto's. That said, if you are riding around in a stock 160 hp 12v CTD, the spool-up is slow on them too because the level of fueling on them is so low. We are splitting hairs on the cylinder head issue here......as I said before, the head is hardly the limiting factor for the 24v but when it comes to big power you will typically see the 12v head used as there is much more room for porting and bowl blending.

BadDog:

I'm sure my truck would ET a bit better if I could do a 15 psi 4WD launch, but I can't without billet shafts.....If you use mph to solve for hp I suppose it could be more accurate in my case.

The Dmax's are fast at the strip....I have seen the run and I gotta say (wincing as I say it) they are fast!.....They are definately a great street/strip diesel. Hp per $ they have got me beat! They seem to be the fastest box only trucks out there - Not certain, but I don't think the other diesels can say they can make 500 RWHP with box stacking only - that is very impressive....the Dmax seems to have a very good injector from stock....Torque per $, they do not have me beat.....FWIW, the mods on my 12v (not including the tranny) could be done for about $1500 if you do the work yourself.....IMO, these days, that is power on a budget...

Now the torque curves.....Let me define what I mean by a flat curve: minimal slope with the majority of the line being horizontal or close to it......The graphs in this thread DO NOT represent the 12v's that I am talking about.....To me it is interesting to note that the graph starts at 1800 rpm - 1800 rpm is a typical peak torque for a 12v!....For a comparison of the torque and hp curves the graph should start at 1200 - 1300 rpm for a 12v.

W have a 05 Dmax work truck and it sure does run strong for a stocker! BTW, what is the difference between the LB7 and the LLY - are those engine model designations for the Dmax?

Actually, the 200VA dynos just over 500 rwhp without stacking and so does the TST IIRC. And I don't know the price for sure, but I'm pretty sure the 200VA is well under $1k and the TST is around $1k or so.??? And that's with only a 10 minute "plug it in" job.

Thanks for the info on the older CTD curves. Your description of where the peak hits is exactly what I thought, so at least I'm not totally loosing my mind. :D But I would love to see the the curves for the older CTDs and the LB7.

And yes, LB7 is the older DMax from '01 to '03 depending on how you count the year model (manufacturer date or model truck). LLY is the newer version with injector changes and slightly higher factory rating. I seem to recall that the LB7 (which is what I have) provided better/fatter/flatter power curves on the "juice" where the LLY peaked higher but couldn't hold it (as shown in the graph). But that difference could have just been an artifact of new chip for the LLY vs. mature chip for the LB7 back then, so they may be comparable now. <shrug>

I do believe all would get the job done but the king of grunt would be my choice . I'll take mine in in-line loonnnggg stroke flavor - Cummins.
A comparison of the beef in the hardware in the motor will make the others look average and the continous service duty of the Cummins is just so damn impressive !
The motor just gets better the harder it is worked......JMHO
Tom

Where is the 7.3 PSD? Any of ya'll drove a 6.0 PSD? Its impressive :D .

Where is the 7.3 PSD? Any of ya'll drove a 6.0 PSD? Its impressive :D . It's impressive? I hadn't noticed. I drove my neighbors 6.0 and stock it was not all that much faster than my Ram Cummins. After we put in an 80HP chip it moved, but nothing special. Personally, I'm hoping Ford uses a different diesel brand in the near future. Something besides their RPM happy V8's.

I agree on the RPM happy issue. I wish they could have kept the 7.3. :doah:

I agree on the RPM happy issue. I wish they could have kept the 7.3. :doah: I agree the 7.3 is an all around nice engine but for all out pulling, it can't touch the cummins. :D :stir:

I just hauled a 3000 lb boat/trailer combo, up and down the cajon pass, and baker grade with my CTD this last memorial day weekend. All I can say is, I had to keep my foot OUT of the gas pedal to stay at 75.. and I didn't know there was anything behind me, until I looked in the rearview mirror.. :D I love the Cummins with my NV5600.. :D
Scott

I agree the 7.3 is an all around nice engine but for all out pulling, it can't touch the cummins. :D :stir:


I have passed a few Dodges heading up Fancy Gap on I-77 in Virginia. rotfl :stir:

I have passed a few Dodges heading up Fancy Gap on I-77 in Virginia. rotfl :stir: Having an all chipped up PSD going around probably stock Dodges doesn't count. rotfl

I have passed a few Dodges heading up Fancy Gap on I-77 in Virginia. rotfl :stir:
It also dosn't count when their on the side of the road taking pictures either :D

But it does count when they are broke down. :stir: rotfl

But it does count when they are broke down. :stir: rotfl
You misread something...we were refering to Dodges, not Dmax's with their pan's full of diesel instead of oil/ rotfl

But it does count when they are broke down. :stir: rotfl
Ofcorse it counts when their broke down to you because that's the only time you get to pass one waytogo

This is what I know... I come from a small ranch and mining town in southern New Mexico. I've towed with the PSD, D-Max and the Cummins. In my experience I've never had a problem with a cummins or the 7.3 PSD that I drove back in 97 for 6 months, but the 6.0 PSD and the D-Max gave me injector problems. The computer on the 6.0 some how fried itself and the #4 and 5 injectors on the D-Max shi# the bed, so when it came to buy last year I didn't even have to shop around other than what dealer would give me the best price on a Cummins... On my family's ranch we have 2 91 12v cummins and a 95 with over 250,000 HARD miles on them. The bodies look like hell becuse of the brush we have to drive through and what not, but we've never had a problem with them. This is just my experience. waytogo

i would take a cummins over a powerjoke :D and a duradud :D any day

I'd take the cummins without a question. I bought an 01 then an 05 dmax now i have the 01 cummins an 04 and an 05 cummins and no dmax cause they suck. Trust me on this one my 04 cummins (555) has 123k on it of which about 120k were with a 50ft trailer weighing any where from 18k to 23k. I have as of yet had no problems with abything on the truck. My 01 has 247k on it and have only replaced a rear seal. I put 60k on the dmax replaced 3 injectors and an "allison"

I too am a cummins man all the way and by cummins a mean a 12v with slight mods :stir:

There is no option for the 7.3 powerstroke?

kind of like my 7.3 too. waytogo

OK, let's say you could have any Diesel engine choice (CTD, PSD, DMax) in any truck you wanted, what would be your choice for pulling a 7% grade at lets say 75 MPH? What did you choose and why? :popcorn:
It's not fair to us 7.3l powerstroke owners. Even though there not in Ford trucks now, but if they were your poll would be different.:stir:

It should have been more clear, what "currently available" engine combo. :D
Also, I can't add to the poll after it is started, but you could start another poll and word it how ever you want. waytogo

I'm gonna say Cummins. I have seen a few smoke the powerstrokes on the hills.

i have been severly overloaded in my cummins.. and it still pulls just fine. i was pulling about 7500lbs and a stock duramax was pulling about 7200lbs and i was able to beat him up the hills going to yuma from san diego. they spool faster unloaded, but dont have the power. i never came out of 6th.
Grant

but...how do know if the duramax was racing you or not?:stir: maybe he was just driving regularly.

Hey guys, new to the site and have to say I love it. Just my $.02, I'd have to go with the mighty Cummins. I've got a 95 with 300,000 miles on it, and she still runs the hills like they weren't there. I like the PSD, 7.3 more than the 6.0, and the Duramax, but the longevity and fuel mileage is hard to beat with the inline.

Im going with the duramax and the six speed manual. I have 44000 miles on my 05 hauling small square bales of hay weighing up to 10ton on an 7000lb trailer so i gross 35000lb. I does a very good job and i have had no flywheel problems yet. Reliability is really changing with the new trucks there are just as many problems with cummins as there are the other two around here.

.....there are just as many problems with cummins as there are the other two around here.As many problems as the 6.oh no? I hardly think so. :rolleyes: ;)

Rusty

Your right but there arent as many 6.0s on the road as the other two around here there are cummins and duramaxes everywhere you look.

Powerstroke 6.0......sad sad sad

http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103776


sad...:poke:

Link does not work, what'd it say?

Here is another link. Read away. If you own a Ford 6.0, make sure you have a box of tissues and clean underwear...
http://http://www.autoblog.com/2005/12/16/fords-power-stroke-diesel-causing-major-problems/

That link didn't work either....hmmmm

Anyway, I found it by typing "Autoweek Ford Warranty" into google. That otta get it fer you.

hi guys new to the site but i like to know where you's get info but not to bash i think cummins&dmax are good motors, but gone to charlotte nc for nascar,we had 04 dodge dull towing 10,ooolb fithwheel,04 dmax towing 7,250lb trailer&03 excursion towing 11,425 toyhauler all three stock drive up FancyGap,i believe is 12% upgrade dodge,chevy no match for 6.0 2nd chevy,dodge fell behind.rotfl

sorry guys 6.7% upgrade hill:rolleyes:

[qu
ote=CATpower]sorry guys 6.7% upgrade hill:rolleyes:[/quote]

I don't know that the original question necessarily had to do with which engine would get to the top of the hill first. I interpreted it as which engine will get a heavy load to the top of the hill every time and then get me home. I voted with my wallet (see signature).

Rusty

i think a psd or the dmax because a ctd has alot of low end torque where the psd and the dmax has more top end than the ctd

I would go ps,but would rather have the 7.3.

Had a 95 cummins,ran good up hill but overheated. Had 300,000 and a #5 plate so I think that could have been the reason. My Dmax would outrun it honestly, but thats not a fair comparison, a 95 vs 02. Last one I would want is a 6.0 due to their poor mileage. With an auto tranny, give it to the the Dmax, the cummins behind that 47 or 48 RE doesnt run right to me. We have an 03 cummins with an auto and my dmax will KILL it in every aspect,even mileage. But, you get that Cummins H.O. with a 6 speed and I dont think anything can run with it.

Duramax LBZ/Allsion. The new DMax has more top end than the Cummins and the Allison is the superior transmission. From the 6.0 I've seen, they're not even the race. I think a 7.3 might do a good job though, but not better than the Cummins or DMax.

Duramax LBZ/Allsion. The new DMax has more top end than the Cummins and the Allison is the superior transmission. From the 6.0 I've seen, they're not even the race. I think a 7.3 might do a good job though, but not better than the Cummins or DMax.

I have to agree.waytogo

where's the 7.3 psd option?

I gotta stick to the 24v cummins with the 6 spd trans. It will outpull the 7.3 6spd ford I used to have. Yes they were geared alike

I gotta stick to the 24v cummins with the 6 spd trans. It will outpull the 7.3 6spd ford I used to have. Yes they were geared alike

I doubt that:stir: was your ford a 89-94, 95-97, 99-01, 01-03?

Duramax LBZ/Allsion. The new DMax has more top end than the Cummins and the Allison is the superior transmission. From the 6.0 I've seen, they're not even the race. I think a 7.3 might do a good job though, but not better than the Cummins or DMax.

You must be kidding:eek: Not better than a cummins or dmax:eek: Dont let 250hp and 525lb/ft torque fool you.

May I ask you why you think it wont do better than a dmax or cummins? Really, what are basing that off of.:confused:

So often we tend to get caught up in the numbers that the mfgs print. Real life towing situations prove otherwise.

I know, im defending the 7.3(I own one:D ), but you guys have to get the facts straight! The 7.3 probably has the best low end in the business of pickups.

last post, promise:D
but... actually, the 6.0 will handle that grade better than the cummins or the dmax everytime. Of course im speaking stock motors.

last post, promise:D
but... actually, the 6.0 will handle that grade better than the cummins or the dmax everytime. Of course im speaking stock motors.rotfl rotfl rotfl

You care to post why you think that is so funny?:confused:

Sure. If I'm pulling a heavy 5th wheel up a grade, I'd like some assurance that I reach the top of the grade and don't wind up walking home. The B-series Cummins is a proven quantity (and, yes, I've worked in technical positions, including technical management, for an engine manufacturer - not Cummins - for over 32 years). Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the 6.0.

Rusty

Sure. If I'm pulling a heavy 5th wheel up a grade, I'd like some assurance that I reach the top of the grade and don't wind up walking home. The B-series Cummins is a proven quantity (and, yes, I've worked in technical positions, including technical management, for an engine manufacturer - not Cummins - for over 32 years). Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the 6.0.

Rusty

Im sorry, but i dont see your point. What cannot be said about the 6.0? What does the quantity of the b series cummins have to do with pulling a grade? and why would you have to walk home? What does your technical positions prove? and lastly, what will or wont assure you that it will/wont make to the top if the grade.

Not trying to be a smarta$$, but I really dont see your point.

My point is - compare the failure rates of the B-series and the 6.0. Are you really going to try to push the position that the 6.0 doesn't have serious, chronic problems? :doah:

Rusty

The question being asked was, which can make the grade better? Not which has the most problems!

Also, when did I ever push the the point that the 6.0 doesnt have problems?:doah:

To "make the grade", one has to reach the top. I'll take the odds of the B-series being able to do that time after time over the long haul over the odds of the 6.0 doing the same.

I voted with my wallet, and I haven't been disappointed - my truck has never been back to the dealer since I ordered and took delivery of it in August 2001. Ya pays yore money and ya takes yore choice - guess that's why they call this forum Brand Wars. ;)

Rusty

Well, since we are on the subject of the 6.0. The later 6.0's are proving to be pretty much trouble free. The early ones is what have soured the 6.0's reputation. The only reason whay they are getting rid of the 6.0 is, I REPEAT, THE ONLY REASON THEY ARE GETTING RID OF THE 6.0 IS BECAUSE OF EMISSIONS!

Now, with that said, I still wouldnt own a 6.0:D

If the 6.0 hits that grade screaming at 4k rpm, it will pull it just fine. rotfl
What if a car pulls out in front of you, and you lose all momentum, what motor would you want then? :stir:

Had a 95 dodge 2500 5 speed that pulled great. Added a few ponies to help it and it performed great. My buddy had a 01 7.3 PSD, he couldnt touch me up hill with the same load. Father in law has a 04 6.0 PSD, were vey close going up hill. I could slightly pull away on grade, on dragstrip he'd smoke me. My dad has a 98 12 valve and an 03 cummins. The 98 has huge balls but the EGT's sky rocket fast. Dosent pull the hills very well because of that. The 03 does not run the hills that well due to the crappy auto behind it. Terrible shift points, truck falls on its face. My 95 pulled better than both the 98 and 03. Now, I have a 02 GMC DMAX. It runs the hills better than my cummins ever did. I truly belive that the Duramax Allison combo is the best. The inline is better with the right application. You need a ton of gears to make em run the way the were intended though, thats why big rigs have 10-18 speeds. Keep the inline in the lower RPM where it belongs. In our pickups, I think the V8's actually run better. Being a farm boy and running John Deers all my life, I thought inline was the only way, but running both trucks, I like the Duramax better now.

I have had a 2000 7.3 6speed with 4:10s a 2005 duramax 6 speed with 3:73s and a 2006 cummins with a 6 speed and 3:73. The powerstroke wouldnt fall out of a tree compared to the other two and it didnt start as good in the cold and it got worse mileage. This is just my experience my next one will be another duramax but i will probably get the allison next time. All of these trucks were extended cab duallys so they were all set up the same except the gears which would have benefited the ford.

I have had a 2000 7.3 6speed with 4:10s a 2005 duramax 6 speed with 3:73s and a 2006 cummins with a 6 speed and 3:73. The powerstroke wouldnt fall out of a tree compared to the other two and it didnt start as good in the cold and it got worse mileage. This is just my experience my next one will be another duramax but i will probably get the allison next time. All of these trucks were extended cab duallys so they were all set up the same except the gears which would have benefited the ford.


I find what you said extremely hard to believe. If you are comparing quickness(how fast it accelerates), then yeah the 7.3 wont hold its own, but all else, well thats a different story. Milage wise, its 50/50 between the dmax and the 7.3, cummins rules in the milage dept.

I find what you said extremely hard to believe. If you are comparing quickness(how fast it accelerates), then yeah the 7.3 wont hold its own, but all else, well thats a different story. Milage wise, its 50/50 between the dmax and the 7.3, cummins rules in the milage dept.

Im not gonna argue with you and say your wrong, but I dont believe the 7.3 can get the mileage the Dmax gets. Maybe if the 7.3 has a manual, it'll come close. But, of course a 05 Dmax and 06 Cummins will out run a 00 7.3 PSD.

My 7.3 stock gets 18-20mpg at 70mph with the tires at 70psi, (of course perfect weather conditions). 4.10's dually, I cant remember what the dmax got when i had it. But I wanna say the same.

My 7.3 stock gets 18-20mpg at 70mph with the tires at 70psi, (of course perfect weather conditions). 4.10's dually, I cant remember what the dmax got when i had it. But I wanna say the same.

I apologize, I was wrong. Your truck an auto or manual though. Only reason I thought the 7.3 couldnt get the mileage was because of my buddys. It was a 01 with an auto and he got about 15-16.

the d-max , cuz it has torque and the allison, it has power through the hole power band. by the time the other trucks are up the hill there tranny's are burned up !!! (ford,dodge)!!

The only thing I'm burning is tires dude. :pimp:

ya, cuz u got all that performance stuff, im talking about stock trucks going at it up the hill, winner's gunna be duramax hands down

Here we go again. :rolleyes: Considering we know a guy who owned an auto and a 6 spd duramax at the same time, then dumped both for a dodge 6 spd, I think you need to drive both before you jump out and say the duramax is the best for an uphill. rotfl You don't want to know what that guy thinks of the pulling power between the two engines. Our transmission had no problem when we upgraded it, it did everything fine even with a chip. No limp modes like you know who.

Wow, the duramax almost has a 1/4 of the vote! I tell ya, that V-8 can move!

Ive had both, cummins and a Dmax. we have two other cummins right now, 98 with a 5 speed and an 03 with an auto. My 02 Dmax pulls the hills better than the dodges from my experience. Mileage isnt as great as pulling the hills with the cummins, but the dmax just moves that load up the hill easier.

I dont know about ya'll grocery getters and jet ski haulers but down here in Texas where oil field hot shot is big bussines; 75% of the hot shot trucks are Dodges, 20% are Fords, and 5% are Duramaxs.

You would think that if the duramax was the "best" diesel truck, they would be the 1st choice for those of us who use and abuse them everyday.

This is my 3rd CTD and it will not be my last. Sure the Dmax may be faster,but will it be faster at 400,000 miles or will it even make it?

This truck here will turn 200,000 miles by Sunday. It runs better now than the day i brought it home.

Sure, the Dmax will make it to 400,000 no problem. Ther Cummins will also, but not that Dodge wraped around it!!! I agree with what someone said earlier, dont trash another truck till you've driven both. This weekend, a family member told me that Ford Dodge an Chevy all have their high and low points. They said the best thing about Ford was that it pulls the hills way better than Dodge or Chevy. They've never driven anything but Ford. With the same load up the hill, they had a rude awakening when they were passed and could not keep up. They said they were truly impressed with the Dmax, but still like Ford. In short, we all like what we like, but untill youv'e driven both trucks, or even all 3, dont say one is better than the other.

My 97 5 speed Dodge....Yes I have changed it a little but...still runs like a sewing machine at 247k

Rick

Sure, the Dmax will make it to 400,000 no problem. Ther Cummins will also, but not that Dodge wraped around it!!!

Thats funny, I traded my 2001 DODGE CTD in at 433,000 miles and the guy that bought it drove it to Canada.

Ok, the argument of the dodge falling apart around the Cummins is getting really old. :doah: I think you guys are just trying to find a chink in the armor.:stir: Dmaxrig, how many duramax's are out there with 400+k miles? I've only seen a few, I think its gonna take more time.

They are out there, but you are correct. It will take more time since they havent been out nearly as long. I like both chevys and dodges, the cummins and the duramax. I just cant stand it when someone who's never driven both trucks says ones better than the other.

the old boy who sold me my 97 12 v has a buddy who has 1,300,000 on his 95,origional injection pump and motor-enough said about reliability.Almost any old guy thats towed all his life would tell you that they wished that dodge still used the 12v in the new trucks.As far as towing power is concerned I think that all the sled pullers got it right.And is it merely coincidence that all big rigs are an inline 6 ?It is a fact that an inline engine will produce more flatter usable torque than a v'd engine of the same displacement

I agree and wish Dodge still used the 12 valve. I had a 95 with 300,000 that ran good. I do however like the way the V8 tows better. Its all prefrence, but I believe that all big rigs run better bacause have so many gears, that gives them a huge advantage. And, almost every chart Ive seen shows the V8 has a flatter torque curve than the I-6.

My new Ram 3500 gets up and moves when I have a load on it.

Hooked my wife's unloaded horse trailer up the week after I bought the truck and went out to play. The truck is virtually as quick with a 2000 pound trailer hooked up, 0-60, as it is unloaded. Six speed manual.

Pulling the trailer with 2 horses... can't even tell it is there. The truck accelerates too briskly for the horses in sixth gear.

Can't wait to get the big gooseneck trailer hooked up after the hitch goes in...

Well, the 2000 Ram I just bought feels very strong. It's the 235/460 motor, and the gearing is low, but I didn't think the older engines pulled this hard, bone stock.

Cummins all the way!

Cummins, at least over the Ford 7.3. Haven't pulled with a Duramax.

Chevy's do run and so does the Fords....but I love my Dodge with 250k+ miles on it...

Rick

I see alot of cummins with well over 250K going strong I must say they do have the bull by the horsn so to speak but any diesel engine should make it 250K before needing a rebuild or longer now.

Cummins

why the 6.0 PSD
first day out she pulled u our rv up teh 7 % grade, it was night and day different from the 7.3 in power.
and i passed a duramax pulling a small boat.
yes i was in 4th gear but he was basically empty

Why the Cummins/5spd ? Because my 2000 with a smarty and straight pipe pulled 8k up to 10000' at 65 mph, didnt even break 1100 deg EGT pre turbo, still got about 14 mpg on that trip, and sounded like a peterbilt. This smarty is something else, pullin a trailer w/ about 10% throttle, amazing.

Cummins all the way.waytogo

whiskey

Just pulled 7 tons of gravel with 7000#trailer=21,000lbs. GCVW=29,940LBS!!! Cummins all the way.......waytogo

well with 8 cummins m11's and 2 detroit series60 in the fleet the cummins way outpull those detroits so I have to agree with all cummins fanswaytogo

Just pulled 7 tons of gravel with 7000#trailer=21,000lbs. GCVW=29,940LBS!!! Cummins all the way.......waytogo

Today, just pulled 7.5 tons of gravel. GCVW=30,9xxLBS!!! The 5.9 had a little workout today.

The olny truck that I would have pulling a grade like that would be a F-650 with a 300hp CAT motor and a 6 speed automatic.

6.0 is the way to go

Looks like the cummins take the post.

Ford PSD 6.0 http://towrig.com/forums/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://towrig.com/forums/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://towrig.com/forums/images/polls/bar2-r.gif 3313.20%Dodge Cummins 5.9/6.0 http://towrig.com/forums/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://towrig.com/forums/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://towrig.com/forums/images/polls/bar3-r.gif 16465.60%GM Duramax 6.6 http://towrig.com/forums/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://towrig.com/forums/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://towrig.com/forums/images/polls/bar4-r.gif 5321.20%Voters: 250. You have already voted on this poll

i would have to say the new 6.0 powerstoke thats just cause thats what i drive an my truck an trailer i pull around for work weights 24,000 pounds an i pull it pretty damn good i cruise 80mph like its nothing i drove from orlando fl to billings montana at 80mph with not even a half pedal. the only reason i know who much weight im pullin i got pulled over by dot an they put my truck on the scales an told me that my truck is way over weight an gave me a ticket for it but she pulls it just find. ive never drivin a dodge but my dad has a chevy 2500 hd its a nice truck an fast but i still like the powerstoke !

yes sir! my 04 250 6.0 pulled bout 15000 pounds just fine! up hills downhills didnt matter. never had a problem accelerating on a hill.

My first choice is a cummins, second would be a dmax.

percect truck would be a ford with an ALLISON tranny with a 610fylbs CTD and king rank insidewaytogo


humble opinion kinda thing
:stir:

one day we will build a 3/4 and 1 ton like they do semi.s:cool:

I'll take choice E. Cat 3126. Ooops sorry. Maybe the 6.4? Wheres my 7.3 on the list? Oh well, I'll take what Ford has given me (7.3) and run it with the best of 'em.

hated to say it, but dodge

why would you say that??! fords the way to go!

why would you say that??! fords the way to go!


LOL!!!rotfl

remember its all opinion. i love the ford you like the duramax. its all good....remember theyre both american made!

i gotta know what doctor you 2 guys are goin to because hes got yall on soem good stuff obviouslyrotfl dodge/cummins is the way to go for sure hehehehehehe...:poke: :stir: just funnin with yall

the cummins is good but the dodge sucks, and the dodge is german! thats not american! so put the cummins in a ford and thats the way to go!

the cummins is good but the dodge sucks, and the dodge is german! thats not american! so put the cummins in a ford and thats the way to go!


ford and chevy are mexican so what's your point?


Stick with the devil you know.

well i know the ford trucks are made in kentucky theres a big truck plant there yes there are some parts on chevy an ford that come from mexico but there not built there and thats probly the same thing about dodge too but i dont know anything bout dodge.

its about the same with all three of them in one way or another.....

the cummins is good but the dodge sucks, and the dodge is german! thats not american! so put the cummins in a ford and thats the way to go!

Here you go:

http://www.destroked.com/projects.shtml

Becomming a very popular swap to put the Cummins into the Fords.

i saw the conversion plate for a cummins with an allison trans. id like to do that! that would be a hell of a match, and the 7.3 to an allison. either one would be perfect!

I like the 04 Superduty with a Cummins and an Allison! Maybe the perfect truck!!!

bought a CTD- so that says it all. Ford was having issues w/ 6.0, did my reading and now we have a Dodge in the family because it has a CTD

THD07
Jeff

THD07

I like the 04 Superduty with a Cummins and an Allison! Maybe the perfect truck!!!

yes!! A king ranch 4x4 dually, with the cummins and a allison! definately the perfect truck!

well i know the ford trucks are made in kentucky theres a big truck plant there yes there are some parts on chevy an ford that come from mexico but there not built there and thats probly the same thing about dodge too but i dont know anything bout dodge.


built in mexico assembled in USA:stir:

split hairs one time :eek:

what ever man i dont think so cause the duramax an powerstroke diesels are american made diesels an the same with the cummins theres like a few parts that come from mexico an other countrys but what ever man

DMAXRIG, you have been touting the dmax throughout the thread, but your "perfect truck" has a CTD in a Ford chassis? Is the only thing you like about the dmax the tranny?

The question was which engine, irregardless of the platform.

So, is it a dmax or a CTD?

DMAXRIG, you have been touting the dmax throughout the thread, but your "perfect truck" has a CTD in a Ford chassis? Is the only thing you like about the dmax the tranny?

The question was which engine, irregardless of the platform.

So, is it a dmax or a CTD?


Is the only thing I like about the Dmax the tranny? No. I love the Duramax engine. Ive had a Cummins before, but have liked the way the Duramax perfroms better. While I like the GM the best, comfort wise and apperance which is all just prefrence, I would rather have a solid front axle rather than IFS. I do like the Fords for that reason, but I guess Dodge would be good for that reason also. I guess if I could actually build my perfect truck, it would be a GMC with a solid front axle, Allison transmission, and engine........I could go either way! Cummins or Duramax. I love both. Cummins for the pure grunt and low end torque which is awesome off road. The Duramax is a gorilla when it comes to hauling a load down the road, incredible! But I guess if I had to answer the question on which engine Id prefer, based on experience with both, Id have to say Duramax.

Cummins , because I know it will pull those grades for hundreds of thousands of miles. It may not pull the hills the fastest but it will pull them the Longest

Very true words there.

ok first of all I AM A FLATLANDER! so a 5% grade is pretty good to me


however last week I took a load of cattle to Indiana and had to pull Mont Eagle with 3K worth of trailer, 7.5k of trailer, and +- 11k of cattle went up in 6th gear with lug from 70 mph down to 65 mph

I love my Dodge



all of it except fuel milage:eek:



One day we will be able to order a truck with what motor and trans mission we want kinda like Large Cars!

After dragging 12k+ out to moab and back (6,000 miles), I have to vote for the dmax/ally combo.

It has to be the most comfy long haul setup I've ever driven and it pulls like a bastid in the mountains.

After dragging 12k+ out to moab and back (6,000 miles), I have to vote for the dmax/ally combo.

It has to be the most comfy long haul setup I've ever driven and it pulls like a bastid in the mountains.

I yanked 21,000 lbs out to Moab dropped my Fifth wheel and did Hells Revenge and Fins n Things bone stock other than My H2 tires and wheels I don't see to many IFS trucks doing that
Chevy/GMC makes very nice comfortable trucks with awesome power and the ally is a good trans but the there just not good for the kinda driving I do

Where are the pics of you climbing out of the hot tubs in that beast?


Here's how I like to play in moab :)
http://eve.unet.brandeis.edu:8181/moab-pics/moab-Images/856.jpg

Here's a pic of how big the BIG hot tub.
http://eve.unet.brandeis.edu:8181/moab-pics/moab-Images/1003.jpg


An even bigger climb near Escalator on Hell's Revenge
http://eve.unet.brandeis.edu:8181/moab-pics/moab-Images/1155.jpg

hey ya'll. I'm coming in late but thought I'd drop my .02. I have a 06 chevy with the duramaxLBZ. I haul loads of hay all summer. Usual load is about 26,000 lbs. I have hauled it with a 92 cummings,04 cummings, 05 6.0LPSD and my 06 duramax. STOCK my chevy pulls the best. cruise control set at 75mph and off we go with the AC on. The 04 cummings pulls pretty darn good also. Wasn't to impressed with the PSD and the older cummings jsut couldn't keep up with traffic. I looked at the dodge real hard but don't like the weak auto that is available and shifting 6 gears in town with the manual isn't much fun. The 6.0 powerjoke with its 45+ recalls wasn't even a option. so I bought the chevy and am really happy with the way it pulls. I think the cummings is a very tough durable motor and when paired with a decent trannie will be the one to beat. Also the cummings is available in the ford power stroke in the F450/550. Does that say something about the 6.0l. Whats a built in america truck any more? dodge is german, the duramax is ISUZU. Toyota is built in tennessee. Is it american? Forget the american/ Forein crap and buy the truck that fits your needs.

rotfl No hot tubs or escalator for this truck!! I Usually wheel a 75 short bed stepside cheby But My hubs and crossover steering didn't come in time to get it put back together for Moab so We Just Loaded up the ToyBox with Quads and camping gear and My buddies TJ on 37" MTR's On a tow Bar behind the fifthwheel and Hauled ass!!

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g190/yellowk20/QSXvalvetrainfailure019.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g190/yellowk20/QSXvalvetrainfailure006.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g190/yellowk20/QSXvalvetrainfailure007.jpg

And Heres my Moab rig This is an old Pic back when it was a half ton on 35" BFG/MT's it has a 60/14bolt combo with Sm465/NV241 detoits on both ends 5.13's 38" boggers and a Fuel Injected 406

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g190/yellowk20/f6f2.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g190/yellowk20/6fcf.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g190/yellowk20/55e9.jpg

nice looking half ton... I love old school short bed pickups.


Just a few more pics from my Moab trip. This in from Upper Helldorado in Area BFE.
http://eve.unet.brandeis.edu:8181/moab-pics/moab-Images/331.jpg
http://eve.unet.brandeis.edu:8181/moab-pics/moab-Images/463.jpg

hey ya'll. I'm coming in late but thought I'd drop my .02. I have a 06 chevy with the duramaxLBZ. I haul loads of hay all summer. Usual load is about 26,000 lbs. I have hauled it with a 92 cummings,04 cummings, 05 6.0LPSD and my 06 duramax. STOCK my chevy pulls the best. cruise control set at 75mph and off we go with the AC on. The 04 cummings pulls pretty darn good also. Wasn't to impressed with the PSD and the older cummings jsut couldn't keep up with traffic. I looked at the dodge real hard but don't like the weak auto that is available and shifting 6 gears in town with the manual isn't much fun. The 6.0 powerjoke with its 45+ recalls wasn't even a option. so I bought the chevy and am really happy with the way it pulls. I think the cummings is a very tough durable motor and when paired with a decent trannie will be the one to beat. Also the cummings is available in the ford power stroke in the F450/550. Does that say something about the 6.0l. Whats a built in america truck any more? dodge is german, the duramax is ISUZU. Toyota is built in tennessee. Is it american? Forget the american/ Forein crap and buy the truck that fits your needs.

its cummins, not cummings

With the older Cummins 02 and down they wouldnt pull that fast. Flat bed trailer or house it would tow/pull at the same speed. Even my 03 really doesnt have much to it. Slow. Good torque but not great and dont get me started on the low hp. All the new 600ftlbs diesels blow by me and not to metion every guy in a chevy from a 1500 to a 3500 trys to race me and yes most of the time the win. I know it sounds like im trashing Dodge/Cummins. Im not. Im happy with my truck:D , just wish it had a little more! But for the poll i think what year of diesel not which brand haha Cuz the early one wouldnt get up the grade that fast. Stock that is.

while all the newer diesels are up for the task I think I would still have to pick the cummins simply since it is an inline motor I mean how many semi trucks have you seen with some sort of v motor?

Cummins 6.7Lwaytogo

Here is an article testing all of the lastest entries in 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks in both Gas and Diesel Trim.

The Duramax pulls the top of the grade better/quicker/faster that all the rest.

http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/2007...otout1mpg.html (http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/2007/shootout/hdshootout1mpg.html)

I have a trucking business in Colorado. I have ran powerstroke, duramax, and cummins. My current truck is a CTD. It does an awesome job pulling here in the mountains.

I would choose my first gen Cummins, it may take it a while to get to 75 mph but once its there, there's no stopping it. Ive personally seen and driven it towing more than 12,000 lbs and its only a 3/4 ton pick up. until ive experienced another engine pulling an equivalent load i would choose the CTD

Here is an article testing all of the lastest entries in 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks in both Gas and Diesel Trim.

The Duramax pulls the top of the grade better/quicker/faster that all the rest.

http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/2007...otout1mpg.html (http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/2007/shootout/hdshootout1mpg.html)

Yo may beat to the next light or maybe even to the top of the hill. But at 600,000 miles when Im changing my oil, you'll be on your 2nd or 3rd truck.burnout

Nice, I ran that trail at night and it is a challenge thats for sure!

Gotta go with the Cummins, had a 01 HO six speed. Great truck sold it with about 140,000 on it. 02 D-Max, loved the Ally trans, blew the head gasket at 16,000 miles, couple injectors went at 30,000 sold the truck at 31,000 miles. Nice truck though, pulled better than the 01 H.O. both in stock form. Still have my 2000 7.3 Powerstroke with the auto. Haven't had any problems with it, just turned 223,000 miles. I wouldn't recommend it for heavy loads but she'll get the job done. 06 Cummins Auto, pulled great, out pull the Ford but not my D-Max or 01 H.O. Sold it for a 07 6.7 Chassis Cab, not sure if that was a good idea :confused: My new 6.7 six speed hand shaker out pulls any of my previous trucks hands down, 54k on the ODO we'll see about reliability of this engine. My comparison is with all of my trucks in stock form. Although you can't really compare auto's to manual's but these are the vehicles that I've owned and have pulled with commercially. They're all good trucks just depends how you intend to use them as to which vehicle will suit your needs. Just my .02 centswaytogo

I would definitely have to go with a Cummins. Since I started pulling heavy loads all I've known was Cummins. I out pulled a 01 Powerstroke with a 2000 Tundra. So I haven't even bothered with fords since then (I did own a 96 F-150 for about 5 years and I do miss that truck). There are three Cummins trucks in our family along with one Duramax (which absolutely hauls the mail when empty) and a Powerstroke. The Dmax and Pstroke seem to have their annual massive break downs. I also live in a mainly agricultural area, every one has Cummins trucks. The service mechanic down the road even has a 85 Chevy one ton service truck retrofitted with a 12V. Then there is my own experience, pulling a 30' gooseneck loaded with 1300lb haybales and a skid steer up a 6% grade at 70mph with a truck that has 156,000 miles on the odometer. Add all of this up, and I would say that dyno charts are pretty meaningless. And why would I choose anything but a Cummins.:dunno:

waytogo too bad we can't built a pick up like you can a semi.
Cummin8s, Allison or Spicer and a dual speed rear end ; I am thinking 2.43 for non-towing and 3.73 or 4.1 for towing applications:doah: waytogo :popcorn:

Duramax!!!!!!!!

either a dmax or cummins, they both serve me well...the older 7.3 powerstrokes pull allright too - doubt that they'll reach 75mph on a 7% grade tho.