TowRig.com - Diesel Discussion and Tow Tech

My dad wants to get better mileage out of his 2002 H.O. 6 spd dually. I called up Rip Rook thinking an EZ would be the ticket but told me that the S.O. automatic trucks like mine respond better to boxes and would see 55HP or so to the ground where the H.O. model would only get 40-45HP to the ground with the EZ. He also mentioned, on the other hand the H.O. models respond better to larger injectors.

He said most customers don't notice any fuel mileage increase with the EZ, a few see 1-2 gain, and a small few see a decrease.

He said the EDM mach 1 injectors will deliver a true 65HP to the ground and will guaranteed deliver 1mpg better, if not more.

My question is....does anyone have any experience with this setup and what they prefer with the H.O.? The injectors are more expensive and harder to install, but if the injectors are that much better than thats what he wants to do, he wants the best results, even if the best choice is more difficult. The EZ would be quick and simple and that does count for something though, especially if it doesn't help his mileage. He can just sell it to me and I can use it in my '01.

Whats better? Mach 1's or an EZ?

I would skip Don M's Mach 1's....nobody I know would or has bothered spending that much for such a small gain.....even Don would admit he sells very few. When going through the trouble and expense of swapping to a state of the art EDM, I would suuggest at least a Mach 1.6....this is some of Don's latest and greatest state of the art stuff - less smoke than a 1.5 and worth about 10 hp more - I suspect it will make the 1.5 obsolete shortly.....it is vastly more efficient injector than the stockers and worth about 95 hp more......many guys have rediscovered the newly redesigned Mach 4......this IMO, is the first truely streetable, efficient, low smoke 150 hp injector out there - injector technology has jumped in leaps and bounds in the last 2 years.....though, M4's are perhaps not the best choice when towing heavy with the stock charger.

The route I went with injectors was the OEM Cummins RV275 injector.....you can pick brand new ones up for $300....it has a more refined spray pattern for notably better efficiency and is worth another EASY 40 hp with a mileage increase - if you can keep your foot off the floor!! The 275's and the Edge Comp are a great match with the stock charger and allow egt's to stay in control when towing heavy. Keep in mind, when running any higher than stock hp injector without a fueling box will require a boost fooler (integeral part of most fueling boxes) and either boost elbow on the wastegate actuator or a j-hook to hold the gate closed.

Many guys run the EZ/275 combo on trucks that are still under warranty and report nearly a 100 hp and 250+ ft/lb gain with this warranty safe set up.

Hmm.... you're saying forget the smaller injectors and step up huh..... (thinking)

Yup.....exactly.....IMO, 60 - 65 hp injector will just leave you wanting more after the thrill has worn off! Don M just has 95 - 100 hp running too clean and efficient to bother with any less of a power increase!

Don't rule out the EZ, though.....for the money and ease (pun intended) of installation, it can't be beat.....plus, it has a built in boost fooler and includes the boost elbow for the wastegate so, when you are ready to add a larger injector later, the truck will already be equipped to handle the additional fuel.

The difference is that this is my dad's truck. He is in no way in search for big power and all he really wants is better mileage. He was all excited when I told him Rip guaranteed at least 1.5mpg better, but when I mentioned they also put out a true 65HP to the ground he kind of gave me a look of "thats nice." All he cares about is fuel mileage. The truck already has a lot of pep for him. I am pretty sure an extra 65HP will be plenty for him and the main thing is he doesn't want to buy guages so the smaller the injecter the better since the truck is completely stock and he tows with it up grades. The 65HP should keep him out of EGT trouble where the 85HP+ makes me a little nervous without a guage.

I myself am eyeballing the 85HP and 105HP injector. But, thats a long way off for me.

Sounds like the EZ would be the best way to go for your dad's truck.....boost fooler is already part of it and the boost elbow comes with it - just plug it in and go - it is literally a 15 minute install and will provide a kick in the pants and a mileage increase because of the additional timing advance......but only if he keeps his foot out of it!! :D

I'd recommend the EZ route. It was easily the single best bomb I've done to my truck. Having installed injectors twice, I really appreciate how the Edge product lives up to it's name.

Gauges first! Even a stock 2nd gen truck desperately needs a fuel pressure gauge. Anyone who tows needs an EGT gauge.

Cheers,
First post :pimp:
Neil

I second that. Either a gauge or a BD fuel pressure light (comes on below 5psi). I recommend the ez. My old 02 HO had a comp on it and was mean, but thats not what your looking for. How bou exhaust and intake? Exhaust makes a big difference.
And inflate the tires.

My dad doesn't want the noise of a performance exhaust, especially when you look at the fairly small power gains from exhaust compared to an Edge EZ or small injectors that are supposed to work fine with the stock exhaust.

My dad still hasn't done anything with his dieing VP44. He says he'll get it in the shop soon. I think I am going to try and get him to go with the EDGE Juice/A2 controller that is going to come out soon. Just can't beat the features of that setup.

some of the exhausts are louder than others. Some people never change em. To each their own. Let me know if you want to pull the VP. Not a hard install by any means if you have the tools.

The EZ is going to fatten up the mid-range (1600 to 2300 RPM), but the stock HO injectors will fall off quickly from 2400 RPM on up. With the boost elbow, the EZ by itself will drop EGTs significantly which can be a big deal if your dad tows.

Injectors by themselves will require a boost fooler and boost elbow if you want to keep EGTs in check (my truck would hit 1300 degF pre-turbo stock). The stock ECM programming will keep the typical HO power curve with bigger injectors - sleepy until 2100 RPM (to prevent overfueling and smoke), then it will pull. The bigger injectors will make themselves felt from 2100 RPM on to redline where they don't fall off nearly as much as the flow-restricted stock injectors.

With the EZ and DD2s (somewhat comparable to DonM's 1.6 sticks), I get 347/762 on the dyno, but I do have to watch EGTs when towing with the stock HX35-12W turbo.

Rusty

Well, yesterday my dad ordered a new VP44 and Mach 1 65HP injectors from Rip Rook.

His plan is if he wants even more power he will order the new Edge Juice and A2 that is coming, this way he will already have an injector that can flow fuel much better than stock.

I would go with the van Aaken V5 rather than the EZ they are both good products but the V5 is about $100 cheaper. waytogo

He doesn't wan't an EZ, or anything like it. Thats why he bought injectors. If then he still wants more he will buy the Juice/A2 that contains multiple power levels, GPS, back up camera, and full guages.

Sorry I didn't read the last post where it said he bought the injectors. :doah:

The thing about the box or chips or ez is that when you intstall the chip you don't have to mess with the wastegate because the chip regulates it for you and it is safer I think.

In the Dodges the chip has nothing to do with the wastegate but it does do boost fooling which is added must exspecially when you have done injectors.waytogo

What I had wondered was that also, what about the wastegate fooling. I know the EZ comes with a different elbow and the Mach 1's are nearly identical in power, if not a little more.

What I found was it seems the truck has compensated for the added fuel. I noticed the turbo, soon following the install of the injectors, to be spooling up quicker and sounds like it's spinning faster and producing more boost. I would assume the computer compensated for the extra fuel and automatically added more air? Another way I can tell the turbop is pulling more air is by how loud the air box got, sounds like a vaccuum in front of the dash now.

It pulls like hell, so I guess it's working.:o

The turbo is spinning faster and sooner. Nothing at all to do with the computer. That's just the result of adding more fuel. If EGT's stay very high, your dad may need a better turbo too. I think I'll have to come over and help put it in if you get it.waytogo

I have no idea what his EGT's are, no pyro.:D I was told that the 12cfm turbo on the H.O. should be able to handle the 65HP injectors, even with stock exhaust and intake.

Ya, the 12 is good(properly running & efficient) to 270hp, give or take a little. So, no twins and Mach6 injectors, & a 6" stack poking thru the hood?rotfl

The truck should be at 310HP currently.

In the Dodges the chip has nothing to do with the wastegate but it does do boost fooling which is added must exspecially when you have done injectors.waytogo

A boost fooler is just an electronic device that manipulates the map sensor voltage to the PCM. The primary reason for this is to prevent the PCM/ECM from seeing higher than stock boost numbers. Without a boost fooler, the factory computer would recognize that there is more boost than stock and it would reduce fueling levels until boost came back down to the stock range.The comp box has a boost fooler built into it, as do the edge ez and most every other available performance module. The stand alone boost foolers are just for people that are only going to add injectors and no performance chip or box.

You also have a turbo boost elbow in your turbo wastegate line. That also comes with the edge comp box. This delays opening of the wastegate so the turbo will run a few more pounds of boost and help cool down those pesky EGTs a bit more. This modification will put your boost in the low to mid 30 psi range. Right where it should be for max efficiency.
This is what I meant!waytogo waytogo waytogo waytogo waytogo

If it's just a touch too hot you can get the HTT stage3 upgrade for the stock turbo for a couple hundred bucks. I did one on the Dodge I used to have & every little bit helps. Did it myself along with a rebuild kit, it's pretty easy. The only bad part is you need some machining done to make room for the bigger impeller, cost me $65 down on 7th street. If you need any extra hands I'll be glad to help, I'm only a couple miles away. I'm itchin' to do some tinkering!

I went thru 3 EZ Edges. while the second was on the check engine light came on-with no noticable change in the engine. 200 mi later, with the chip removed, the dealer replaced the FTP and the VP44.
i sent the Edge back and they replaced it. I was never comfprtable so i sold it and installed Mach1 injectors. Smoother, moves out good. Can't wait till i pull.
I do have a spring loaded turnbukkle on the waste gate-24PSI and a boost fooler will be put on.