PowerStroke(T444e) vs. Cummins facts

Cat:
You seem to think I'm slamming the CTD, I'm really not. I'm only saying that the V8 design is better suited to the typical (but certainly not all) LD users, myself included.

Actually, I did distinguish between the various versions, and I specifically said that it was becoming more comparable over the years in both rpm range and broad, flat torque curve.

I do tend to like to "hot rod around" a bit, that's part of the different market segment. As much as some of the guys here like to put down anyone who doesn't use an HD LD for 80%+ towing, that is nothing more than lame "elitism" and ridiculous in the extreme. 90% (probably more lately) of the time, I DON'T need a diesel or 2500HD. I bought it because it was "fun" (the power"), had room for what I want to haul (family = CC), *AND* when I want/need to loader 'er down to15-20+k, I can do it without flinching, even if it's only a few times a year. And I feel confident in saying that 99%+ of this market segment has the same goals and usage that I do. Well, except for the fact that probably 1/2 or more of them don't ever actually get loaded beyond what a 1/2 ton could do. But for whatever reason, that's the market, and I still maintain that for these folks, the V8 is a better config than the CTD any every category except "bragging rights" which is only important (in my mind, bias admitted) for those with "compensation" issues, the same guys that run big lifts and tires on the street and never go off-roading. But again, this is a valid part of the target market, so for "compensator", CTD wins that category too. Sorry, just poking fun at you. For a detailed point by point, read on…

My DMax has a broad flat curve so that it makes little difference whether I'm at 2000 or 4000, and even the CTD 600, which is the flattest and broadest CTD I've seen slopes off quite a bit beyond (was it?) 2k or so. I also run higher rpms when towing in the mountains. Going up a grade, if for safety or any other reason, I drop below 75, then I loose OD and can't get it back, but I can hold speed running against the governor. Yeah, it an Allison/Auto issue, but with my bum leg, a manual is no longer really an option. I don't have the low rpm torque that a Cummins does, but I have a deeper axle gear to make up for it, and higher torque at a higher rpm so over all, especially if it's an auto, DMax come out ahead except on peak torque which is a lead the CTD holds only for a narrow range. I think this is also why a manual, with more gears and driver control of gear/rpm matching, makes so much more difference in a CTD than the V8s. Stock to stock of course, all bets are off with mods.

And thanks for the info on the reason for the early CTD having and excessive peaky curve. I have not heard that before. Can't image why Cummins/Dodge would intentionally kill the back side of the curve just because "they decided they didn't need it". The upper end of the curve is where "all the fun" is (HP being a function of torque and all) so why would they intentionally remove that and kill part of the market? Warranty/liability issues I suppose... I did know the mod'ed trucks were much better than stock, but the dyno graphs even from moded pre-computer CTDs always seem peaky in comparison from what you see from the V8s. And I've been told (no engineer myself) that this was a characteristic of the I6 design. In particular, I discussed this with one of the guys at Edge (briefly, as to what was being done with CTD vs DMax at the time) and a couple of dyno guys who run both quite frequently. Multiple sources that I deemed credible, but certainly not 100% I guess.

As for peak prm, the torque curve on a DMax is still running pretty level when it hits the stock governor (which just stops the motor rather than degrading torque across a wide range), and when the governor limit is removed (chip) and no other changes are made (chip or otherwise), it continues happily along well beyond 4k. (I've seen the results some time ago, and don't remember the exact numbers, so I'll leave it at that) So apples to apples, the Dmax is still pulling on well beyond where the CTD falls off, even in the CTD 600 version. Is it needed? Depends on what you want to do. If you mostly sit on the interstate, and don't mind bleeding off speed on the passes till you lug it up against the engine and continue, then no. That's why I say hot-shotters, RV fanatics, and the like will probably like the CTD better. I have always freely admitted that the CTD is the better engine in many applications, just not in *EVERY* application.

Since we are talking about curves, here are dyno charts from Edge for both '03 Dodge '03 Ford, and '02 GM. Closest matches I could think of for our discussion. Not interested in the chip curves, but rather stock, otherwise hard to compare apples and apples (which I guess stock isn't anyway).





Like I said, and you support, they have been growing ever closer over the years, but particularly when compared to the DMax, the CTD does not have the range or torque curve to match.

So, onto your statement that I "you make it sound like the V8 design was new for GM and Ford" is not in any way true. They have both used V8 diesels since the 6.2 DM/Detroit and the 6.9 IDI NA Ford/IH. But notice anything? They've chosen V8s at ever step. Why? Are they all stuck in a rut for the last 20+ years and have nobody who can see beyond what came before?

In any case, even if you disagree with my reasoning, and you have made some good points, I think you will have to agree that to say that the V8 is inferior simply due to it's design is ridiculous. They each have their own pros and cons and all 3 are great motors that stack up well against each other. Maybe I come off a bit strong simply because I'm so sick of the "I6 rules and V8 drools" grade school mentality some of these guys have. I try to stick to the facts as I believe them to be, but my emphasis probably does lean too far at times just in trying to make a counter point or represent the opposing view.

And please don't try that "you support it because you own it" angle on me. I had credited you as above that tactic… IMO, there are those here who certainly fall into that rut, but I'm not one of them. I have owned/driven trucks from all 3 makers, I6, V8s, and different weight classifications up to medium duty. With a few exceptions I have liked them all with a little give and take here and there. All that previous experience led me to make the choice I did, I didn't just buy what everybody said was best and then defend it blindly as many here have done. I chose the truck based on the package, and while I've learned a bit and changed a few opinions since then, I still believe it was the right choice and I represent my opinions as they are which is unrelated to the current truck I drive.

And *again*, I'll give you all your points in favor of the I6, and there are many. And yes, I can make a good argument for an I6 by focusing on the places it shines. Please pay attention here THIS TIME, I've said it many times, each has areas of superiority and areas where it lags a bit, but they are all great and NO CLEAR WINNERS *OR* LOSERS. Problem is, the I6 fanatics seem to fall into the personality category where they can't accept anything other than "my way is the one true way". So, I generally argue this side for balance, accuracy, and *completeness* simply because most people will not stand up against the onslaught of I6 fanatics who can't see beyond their own personal goals and opinions. I happen to have chosen the GM for a variety of reasons including the Dmax characteristics, but I'm sure I would have been equally happy with a CTD if other factors had not closed that door.

 

Bobby:

It's not my "journey", it's a statement of opinion that I try to back up with my "facts" as I understand them rather than resort to sad attempt to discredit or belittle those who disagree.

And it is a fact, Dodge "chose" an off the shelf engine that is I6 when Ford and GM participated in and used engines specifically designed for that market segment. I've drawn conclusions, and posted my opinions based on possible scenarios I think likely. Your obviously free to believe or not believe, but if you want to argue that I'm wrong, you'll need more do than chant "nah ah" and "I6 is better". Tell me where and why I'm wrong (other than just saying I am). Present another scenario that makes sense as to why the "big 2" spent all that effort on new engines (or even if they just chose what ever Detroit/Isuzu/IH/NS was working or recommended at the time, it makes no difference) to wind up with an engine that is both more expensive to build and to maintain. Hmm?

And your angle on the "around town" is wrong too. Yet again, you are misrepresenting me as all you I6 fanatics love to do. "Better" is a matter of degrees. I've driven stock 12 an 24V CTDs "around town" as well as "turned up" versions and never felt lacking. I *AGREE* with you! But the simple fact is that side by side, back to back, I (and MANY others) will notice the V8 characteristics (by nature, or design, I don't know enough do say for sure, just opinions) will "feel better". That is all. I have never said that the CTD will leave you feeling inferior or anything of the sort. It's a matter of degrees.

A Porsche and a Ferrari are both great cars, but each has elements that exceed the other based on how you use them, and this discussion is no different IMO.

As I've always said, with a few exceptions, anyone will likely be very happy with any of the current "big 3" LD diesels in all scenarios. Nobody is going to feel disappointed whether it's towing, around tow, dragging a sled, or burning 1/4s. But if you have specific goals that make one or the other package (each has trade-offs, GM, Dodge, or Ford - it should never be JUST about the engine…) "better" on the whole for you, then choose that package. Depending on the goals, one may stand out above the others, but even if you flip a coin, none are going to leave you crying in your beer, though a different selection might have been marginally better.

 

Hmm, no idea, just an Edge thing I guess.

I just grabbed those charts since they were easy to find, showed the stock torque I was mentioning (and what chips can do as an aside) and I figured they would give the best chance of acceptance as an "authority" of sorts... Unfortunately, with the leap-frog year by year and the disparity of torque curves from one truck of the same make and model to another, any curve other than the one dyno'd for your truck is really only for reference and general "shape".

 

Good points, that's what I meant about warranty/liability concerns.

Still, even 15 years ago, when you are getting paid to work with your truck, whether it's job rate or miles, you need to get it done. So even though "fun" has really only been a largish part of the "what do I want" equation for HD diesel pickups in the last, say, 6 or 7 years, frustration for RV'ers and working drivers was always an issue. Of course, break downs are even more of an issue, and for the points you made, they really had no choice other than to upgrade other components. And since they had no real competition back befor the later 7.3 PSDs and (when GM FINALLY gets in the game) the DMax, I guess they felt that what they had was the "sweet spot" for return on investment.

And BTW, I don't discount the 6.2, 6.5TD, or even the old IDI Fords. I was even looking for a 6.2 for my K5 for a while due to the crazy high mileage they can achieve. They all had good points and are still working today, but they are pretty much eclipsed by the modern crop of diesels in every category.

 

LOL, thank you! Its nice to see someone who can discuss and debate in a rational way.

As for lumping I6 into a category of "peaky torque curves" unfairly, ok, maybe I have. I'm no engineer, and base my opinion on my limited experiences and those who I think are credible (which you seem to be). I really know nothing of I6 CATs or the other OTR engines to say what is possible, but in my experience with I6 gassers and diesels (which is pretty much limited to CTD, Perkins, and the like) shows a consistent tendency for "peaky" torque curves. Perhaps your right and my opinions are based on limited scope of experience and listening to the wrong people. But I still maintain that with regard to the trucks and engines in question, my facts do stand even if I incorrectly associate them with the I6 design.

And even thought we have seen flatter torque curves on the Cummins, it still falls off (for whatever reason) well short of the DMax, and to a lesser extent, the 6.0 PS. And again, the computer controlled engines are bringing them closer as I've said all along.

Look at the charts again. They are all from the same range of diesels, and I even handicapped the V8s by using first gen charts ('02 and '03) against an evolved CTD at '03. How could I have gotten closer? I could step it up in years and show a LLY against the CTD where GM leap-frogged ahead. I could step on and grab the CTD 600 at a point where Dodge was ahead. I could step on more and grab the newest DMax which pulls ahead again. So if anything, I *handicapped* the GM which is a year previous to major "upgrades" (debatable in Fords case) by both others. I just chose what I thought was the best match and easy to find that allows remote linking. So in your own words, "funny" how you missed that.

And I'm soon to be 40, so I don't think I fall into the "younger ricer types" crowd. And in general driving around town, the DMax typically shifts a bit above 2k. But if I'm in a mood to do so, it'll wrap on up there and it's a blast to drive, especially with the chip. That does make the V8s ability, particularly in the years I bought mine, much "better" for my usage, and there are a LOT of people I know personally who do love that they can have the best of both worlds. A reving "hot rod" when they want it, and a lugging pulling beast when they need it. Even if the CTD (because of I6 or not) would do better in the second category, it's not worth the trade in the first for many of us, though that trade-off is certainly less significant with the later CTDs or with upgrades. And the newest CTDs are as you say "rather flat", but not in even in the same category as the curve represented by the DMax then or now (though the latest DMax does seem to roll off on the back, so getting closer still eh? ). Good enough or "rather flat" does not mean "best", though it may mean "good enough for any practical purpose" depending on the persons assigning values.

It is hard to compare them, especially if you extend it into the realm of what's possible instead of what's stock in the big 3. All things being relatively equivalent though, the V designs are designed (for whatever reason) to run higher rpms and hold the power up at those rpms and the I designs are designed to build lower and fall off higher. I have my own theories as to why GM and Ford consistently choose a V design for this market, but they are only theories and opinions, I've never said otherwise. Whether I've mistaken cause-and-effect myself and mistakenly "assumed" that this is the nature of the I vs. V design can certainly be debated as you have effectively done. I lean to the V8 side for reasons stated, you lean to the I6 side for reasons stated, and I don't think either of us is wrong, we just have different criteria, and so, we each have our own "editors choice" for "best". But we both agree that they are all good designs and suitable for the market.

Just like with Bobby in previous (somewhat) heated debates, it comes down to we are not that far apart, we are just on opposite sides of a debate, each making our point the best we can. I think your biggest problem with my posts is that I did focus/slant my stance on the V8 strengths vs I6 weaknesses (as I see them) and did not fairly emphasize the opposing points. But you I6 guys keep that covered quite effectively, so where is the fun (or fair representation) if I provide both sides of the debate?

If someone comes on here making sweeping unsupported statements that I6 sucks and V8 rules and as Bobby used to be fond of saying, "it is better "hands down", then you'll see me just as vocal on the I6 side. I'm more about "complete" and "accurate" (within my limits of understanding and natural human bias) than about pushing my view or "winning". That's part of why my posts are so long. I'm not trying to snow you under like some lawyer with overloads in paperwork and I do not want to come across as elitist either. It's just that I not only do I not want to respond to the next 16 posts as people fail to see what/why I said something (especially if that something is contentious, as it always is if you don't agree that I6 is best), but I also give you guys as much of my background logic/"fact" as possible *HOPING* that if I'm wrong or missed something you'll correct me, and we can all learn the truth rather than the mindless self-serving propaganda you get on the targeted sites like TDS, TDP, TDR, and such like. Those sites are great if you need info on a specific brand or something, but useless to compare and figure out how they stack up against each other…

Thanks for the great debate/discussion. waytogo

 

Cummins:

You have a valid point, to an extent. But I don't think that holds water in the HD pickups market. The "Cummins" name and the legions of "I6 is the only way to build a diesel" followers more than neutralize (IMO) the knee-jerk "I want a V8" American response for diesel truck buyers. Especially in an age when V6s and I4s are ever more popular as performance platforms and the V6s offer power comparable to and often exceeding V8s while getting better mileage. Especially after the Buick GN, I really don't think "V8" is all that significant as a "compensator" in the current automotive culture. Of course, we still have the big GM V8, V10s and V12 too, but they have relatively little appeal for the most part. So, for gassers, I agree that nobody wants a truck that is not a V8, and preferably at least 350(ish) ci, but not for diesel where I think most (as evidenced by the posts here, which admittedly are no where near statistically significant as an over all indicator) feel that it's a minus, not a plus.

 

All:

Oops, sorry, just realized the dyno charts for the GM and Ford do not list the years. As I mentioned in the text, it is '02 GM LB7 and '03 Ford 6.0 PS. Sorry for the confusion…

Bobby:

I don't race around at 4,000 rpms, but I do hit it if I'm racing or feeling like a little fun merging into 70+ mph traffic with less than an 1/8 mile on ramp or something (especially if loaded). And sometimes when I drop from OD going up a 6% with 15k and I don't want to drop below 70. Is it *needed*, no, but it can be fun and that has some value to me.

And your right about the need for the trans to keep the engine in it's range, auto or not. My trans will let my engine rev as needed, and it will let it rev higher than your CTD governor (if stock) or tranny will typically allow. I does because it *can*, and there are scenarios where that is "better" assuming the whole package works together (final drive ratios and all).

And surely you don't think those graphs were meant to impress you or anyone else, I assure you that was not the case. I was just showing a snapshot of a point in time that backs up what I was saying. And I would certainly hope you would have shifted before falling off that back side, that would be true of any engine including a gasser 350 with TBI that falls off rapidly around 5k, or any other config. You drive/shift based on what you have, so that point of "I would already have shifted" is really irrelevant. Sure, you can get the work done, and at the end of the day (god I hate that phrase) that's the most important thing. But having a wider, flatter curve with "more area under the curve" does provide additional value and opens up more options for gearing and such that a narrower curve (for whatever reason) does not have. I don't care one whit (whatever that is) about your seat of the pants feeling in this case, it is generally accepted the more area under the curve is a benefit, but for some reason, the CTD fanatics just can't accept that or anything else if it means their precious object of affection is in any way not coming out on top.

I'm well aware that there are uses and scenarios where my DMax is inferior to the CTD and that does not bother me at all because I'm confident that I found and bought the truck that had the balance I needed/wanted. Why can't you CTD heads accept the same? Frankly, the way you guys respond (with a few exceptions noted) strikes me more as someone lashing out to protect their baby from a general feeling of insecurity and lack of confidence. Which, as I've already pointed out, is one of the big draws of that CTD badge on the fender…
rotfl :stir:

 

LOL, I guess you guys really hate it when my work slows down (as it has been this week) and I have time to keep up on the boards...

 

You may be right, but it just seems like most of the HD pickup crowd is fixated on I6 as superior, and the winner for "cachet" (most important criteria for the yuppie and status seekers) is definitely the CTD badge (IMO).

One correction though, I really don't think the DMax is "best". In fact, I would say flat out it is NOT "the best", but also that none of them are deserving of that status... I just think it offers the best mix for my needs and many others.

Hehe, I may cross to Dodge for the same reason if the GMC starts following the Chevy designs. No way I could stand that Chevy front, it's a deal breaker for me. But your right, the new Dodges are not much better and keep getting worse. So if I wind up needing a new truck (no plans any time soon) and GMC follows the general trendof getting uglier, who knows, I may suck it up and go PS, which to me has the least to offer of the 3 engines) just because of the looks. Maybe they'll have a decent engine (IMO) by then if it comes to that.

 

LOL! rotfl Good ones actually...

But I think you've got it twisted, and I probably wasn't clear either which is the problem.

Yeah, the "yuppies" and Lexus/BMW/Cady crowd tend to gravitate to the GM due to the plush creature comforts including superior ride and handling both loaded and unloaded, but those are not really the target of my earlier jab, though I did scramble it in my flurry of hasty typing.

What I was really poking at is the *POSER* crowd of "I'm a big tough guy and drive a REAL truck with a REAL I6 Diesel in it!" crowd... For the poser, nothing says "I'm a man" like a big honking "big rig" pretending Dodge with CTD in big ol' proud letters on the fender or door. For those guys, a DMax is out of the question since all that plush comfort would make them feel sissified and there egos can't handle that, sorta like wearin' a pink shirt, though they might go for the synthetic Ford "working truck image" (primarily a result of aggressive fleet sales and advertising) if they are not "in the know" enough to recognize the "stature" of that CTD badge... It's certainly easy to spot those compensating, "not secure in their manhood" folks in the crowd here...

Back at cha! oke: :stir: rotfl Now don't be pokin' no sticks at me... rotfl I can sling the hash too!