What do you like (or hate?) about your tow rig?

Discussion in 'General Tow Rig Discussion' started by Divorced, Aug 6, 2006.

  1. mbryson

    mbryson Well-Known Member

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    For what they are asking for for a new truck, I feel totally justified in getting EXACTLY what I want. They want that much money, THIS is the truck I want. Don't have it, time to find someone who does. The Dodge is the closest thing to what I want if I go pay the new truck money. I'm driving a used F*rd, so that ought to tell us something. (not that there's anything wrong with the Dodge, they just didn't have the truck I wanted and I started thinking about $$$$ for how much a NEW truck was and how much this used F*rd that I knew about was)

    Oh, and when I think of 'handling', I don't really associate it with a truck much (something sportier, that's great-let's take a spin--this is a truck, right?---I've not seen any SFA vehicle 'bounce' itself off the road under 'normal' driving conditions that I'm putting a 6500 or greater # truck through--abnormal driving coditions, sure....but I've seen Walker Evans and his resources try to make IFS work under those same conditions and he's running a solid axle nowadays). If it can 'handle' the load by stopping, steering and carrying at what I deem a reasonable and prudent speed, I'm happy. (and that brings up the whole low profile tire, 22" wheel on a 4x4 truck thing....... I guess I'm too old to appreciate low profile rubber on a lifted, former work vehicle.)
     
  2. BadDog

    BadDog TRC Staff Staff Member

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    Well, maybe I'm just more in tune to that sort of thing because I used to race years ago.

    But in any case, handling in a truck is AT LEAST as important as in a car because you often have a great deal more mass to deal with and keep under control. You find that out very quick when you need to negotiate a turn that looked fine for your speed when you entered, but then find out it’s tighter than it looked, and just to make things more interesting, you find that the road is rippled, cracked or otherwise less smooth than what you initially thought, and now it’s too late to do anything about it except ride it out. The high mass of a SFA has the associated HUGE increase in inertia, and it wants to skitter across the high spots on rough roads, resulting in SEVERE understeer. I can generally handle over steer without any sweat, and the '72 L82 I used to race had GOBS of it! But under steer scares the begeebers out of me as there is generally no recovery but to ride it out.

    That excessive mass and inertia is the key to understanding why I preach the whole “IFS in it’s place and SFA in it’s place” mantra. Back before the whole automotive world fixated on “cool looking alloy wheels” in all sorts of outlandish patterns and horrible spindle killing geometries, the origins of alloy (aluminum, magnesium, etc.) wheels were solely to reduce unsprung weight and reduce the “skitter” effect. An IFS suspension (truck or car, 4WD or 2WD) with alloy wheels will always have the advantage from drastically lower unsprung weight because it can more rapidly change direction to follow the rough surface.

    And even if you always drive like a grandma through the turns and avoid the understeer disaster, the same thing applies to panic stops on rough roads. If the tires are skipping, they are not on the ground, making it hard to stop that 15k trailer pushing along in the rear. This is simple physics and is well known and acknowledged all through the automotive community, including off-road where racers spend a lot of time and money trying to reduce unsprung weight.

    Again, not trying to start an argument, but handling is ALWAYS an important issue to consider whether your driving a ‘Vette or an working truck. Sometimes other concerns legitimately over-ride maximized handling (but never negated) resulting in a compromise of sorts. For instance, you need large tires (or just want to be a poser for that matter), or you need to maximize articulation, or whatever. Walker Evans was trying an experiment to see if he could get the benefits of IFS on his rock rig, but ultimately decided the resulting compromises were not worth the benefits (which were significant, though no sufficient in the aggregate). And for that use, I couldn’t agree more. For my truggy and my 1 ton K5, I run SFA and steel wheels with little to no regard for unsprung weight (although I did have a harrowing experience in the K5 not too long ago related to stopping issues I mentioned just above that nearly resulted in a wreck). That choice makes sense for them. And with your priorities, SFA is a perfectly legitimate choice for your tow rig and for many others.

    Summary: Handling is ALWAYS an important consideration for any vehicle regardless of usage, but is only one factor among many that must be evaluated before making a choice. And to make an intelligent and informed decision on this subject, you have to understand the *real* implications of SFA vs IFS. There are perfectly good reasons for choosing either, just don’t do it because “someone said X is better”. The factors that led to that assertion are likely different than your own needs/desires, and there is no guarantee that the authoritative party is offering anything more substantial than their own knee-jerk reaction based opinion or parroting those of others. That goes for what I said too. Don’t take my word for it, look at the facts I offer, and the facts contrary to my position and decide for yourself what YOU want or need...

    Aside: I actually was going to refrain from getting any further into this since I didn't want to derail the thread. Then I realized, this IS the topic of the thread. I’ve owned more IFS and SFA trucks over the years than I care to recount, working trucks including a 2 car hauler all the way down to a Jeep CJ7 and everything in between. And I’ve driven them in all conditions all over the country. And this is a topic that has been perfectly consistent across all of them and even relevant based on my own recent experiences.
     
  3. mbryson

    mbryson Well-Known Member

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    Again, you're more comfortable with your IFS and you'll NEVER sell me on it. Sorry. I HATE how it feels unless it's not doing anything. Sounds like you're going to fast for your load in your turn in your first paragraph to me. If it turned into an accident, you'd get a ticket for going 'too fast for existing conditions' (at least here in Utah). IFS makes a TON of sense on a BAJA truck or whatever, but I'm not running anything I own at that kind of speed offroad. Too expensive to fix whether it's IFS or SFA. For my money, I'd rather just drive the appropriate speed and keep my load in check.

    In Walkers case, he couldn't keep the thing from rolling over in places that other rigs were having NO issues.
     
  4. BadDog

    BadDog TRC Staff Staff Member

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    The "prevailing conditions" clause has nothing to do with unforeseen (and unforseeable) road conditions such as a cracked washboard road and how they relate to physics and unsprung mass. It primary purpose is to nail morons who insist they can drive the speed limit even with heavy fog, driving rain, and so on. Anything that keeps the vehicle under better control in more situations is a good thing, wouldn’t you agree?

    And as you say "again", I am not trying to talk you or anyone else into anything, and really couldn’t care less what you (or anyone else) choose to do or why, as long as it does not affect me and mine. I'm simply commenting on what I believe to be inaccurate statements based on personal preference rather than fact, and I’ve also laid out my reasons for believing that way. I also freely acknowledge that you are free to disagree and present your counter views. :D Now, I don’t think either of us have anything else to add, so can we just let others make their own decisions based on our debate? ;)

    And on the irrelevant discussion about Walkers failed experiment, his problems (as far as I'm aware) in that area (not withstanding other problems with wheel travel and spring rates) were primarily due to the affects of CoG in relation to roll axis (close enough for this discussion) and the resulting jacking effects causing a "runaway" situation, resulting in an inevitable flop once the critical angle was reached. Typical SFA setups have a variety of other forces countering this effect and, in part, explain why he abandoned a very cool and gutsy experiment. What this has to do with SFA vs IFS characteristics in a tow rig I have no idea, so maybe we should take this off line if you care to discuss further?
     
  5. mbryson

    mbryson Well-Known Member

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    If GM were to offer an 'option' on the K3500 (the did this in the early 90s for 2WD 3500--:rolleyes: ) for an AAM or Dana axle, I'd be curious to know how many folk in my neck of the woods would move back to GM. Call it an 'Extreme Duty' or something....? Most of us prefer the General, but have moved to other makes because of the perception of IFS (right or wrong). I don't push my personal truck as hard as some guys I know, but I do quiz them pretty hard and go work with them for a few days with their trucks (they are a tool them) before I plunk my $$$ down. That steered me away from the early 24 valve Cummins (with the injector pump issues, let alone the noise in the cab---they're good trucks, I just didn't want to have $2500 sitting around waiting for an injector pump to fail--$2500 can do a lot of different things rather than provide my own warranty work).
     

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