PowerStroke(T444e) vs. Cummins facts

Come on Bobby, let the inline montra go already...

From what I recall, in most cases, the I6 design is more efficient ONLY when used in narrow/constant rpm ranges. This makes them ideal for OTR, pump engines, and even light tow rigs that get on the road and just roll down the highway. The computer control of the CTD 600 goes a long way to improving this, but you can clearly see in torque graphs that it is no where near the width or range of the common V configs.

They tend to have "spiky" torque curves which make them less ideal for general purpose use such as daily drivers and even around town short haul delivery. The V config tends to have a broader operating rpm range and a flatter torque curve, although that often comes with a lower peak output for comparable displacement. They also generally have FAR less vibration issues, though that gap is narrowing as well in modern designs.

So, that "superior inline efficiency" only applies to applications where you can keep it on its peak most of the time. As soon as the torque drops (on either side) below the (often) table flat levels of the V configs, they become more efficient (assuming comparable displacement and design".

So, yet again, I maintain that it depends on the application. Do you really think that CAT, International, Detroit, Isuzu and all the rest continue to build V designs just because they are not as smart as you guys chanting the benefits of "inline"? That they just "don't get it", but you do? Do you think Navistar and GM/Isuzu built brand new from the ground up V configs for light trucks just because they lacked your wisdom in understanding the merits of inline design?

No, they build multiple configs for different applications because they each have characteristics that lend themselves better certain types of use. Don't you think maybe they analyzed the pros-n-cons of the various designs before deciding on a V config? If anything, I would say it's Dodge that's out of the loop. The CTD is a *FINE* motor and I love it for many reasons, but Navistar, Isuzu, Ford and GM all agree that for the usage of the light truck market, a V config is better. You CTD heads and all the fanatics chanting "inline is better because OTRs use inline engines" and "CTD is better in a light truck because it's a medium duty engine" (same applies similar statements about IN/NS medium trucks) are all drinking the cool-aid and not thinking about the TOTALLY different usage.

Hmm, lets see, the big players who designed new engines from the ground up for light duty trucks thought V designs would work better. Obviously economics played a part, but the "simpler", fewer moving parts, and your vaunted "more efficient" inline designs should have won there, don't you think? But Dodge, who grabbed a diesel pretty much off the shelf, quite likely based on economic inputs that had nothing to do with "best diesel possible for this application", and which happened to be an inline meant for a completely different class of use; somehow, that gets touted as being better than what was consistently chosen when starting with a more-or-less clean slate? Don't you see the obvious conflict here?

As for the "million mile motors", again, who cares in the light truck market? If your not a "hot shotter", horse fanatic or retired RV fanatic who lives on the road in their RV, *nobody* puts half that many miles on a light truck before the entire truck is literally falling apart. Those motors that run that long are almost invariably run OTR style where most of their miles are highway and spending almost ALL their time at operating temperature. Nothing at all like the usage of light trucks (even tow rigs) where there is much more start up, shut down, stop-n-go, and more often than not, spotty maintenance. If a "light truck" ever sees more than 200-250k miles, it is very rare in the over-all total numbers on the road.

Bottom line, the "medium duty" and "million mile motor" chants along with the "inline is better" arguments simply DO NOT APPLY in general to light duty trucks. They do apply in certain categories, and they are "good things" in some cases, but not across the board, and trying to act as if they do smacks of "its best because that's what I have" thinking and lacking of rational consideration.

 

No, your wrong.

 

Since you don't like my long replies, I figured I would give you the short version first. :stir: If you want a more detailed response, read on...

First off, this is "towrig.com" and the original post referenced "PowerStroke". So, either we are talking about their application in light trucks or this is OT, I chose to believe it was on topic. Those links are somewhat relevant only in the same way your constant references to CTD being a medium duty engine and how that makes it the best light truck diesel. Which is to say, not much… :stir: Interesting "facts", but not generally relevant for typical light truck usage.

And whether it "feels" that way or not does not matter in the least. Dyno charts and other scientific methods show clearly that they DO tend to have spiky curves unless compromises are made to flatten it out as with the 600. If "feels like it " matters, then all those guys claiming significantly higher gas mileage and dramatic power increases in relatively stock motors from simply adding a K&N filter would be right even though EVERY scientific test shows that gains are minimal at best. And we should start believing those "tornado" things work, and I've been told by more than one person that those "gas line magnets" work, so I better run out and get one. Or wait, maybe I should look for factual support rather than relying on "feels like" and "seat of the pants dyno" results…

And sorry, but your whole paragraph starting "In almost every way an inline diesel is a better engine than a comparable V configured engine" makes no sense at all. In limited application scenarios that is undoubtedly true, but it is simply not true across the board. Inlines ARE simpler and generally cheaper to produce and maintain. Don't you think that might be why they appear in fleet trucks so frequently? Or do you also believe that Ford makes the BEST truck, that's why fleets use them so heavily. Or could it be that Fords fleet incentives make it a better value?

And I do maintain that the V config is *generally* better in a pickup (aka "light truck"). You also seem to agree that the V8 might be best ("maybe") for drag racing and "putting around town". Hmmm, what do most of the folks here have? A pickup? How do most people here use their trucks? Don't you think most fall somewhere within the "light truck" usage patterns (ignoring the status seekers for the moment)? Doesn’t that mean they spend most of their time "putting around town" and a much small fraction towing? If that is the case, how can you say, "In almost every way an inline diesel is a better engine than a comparable V configured engine"? If they spend the majority of the time "putting around town", then how can an engine that is only (IMO) marginally better in typical towing scenarios (only a small fraction of typical usage) make it "better" in almost every way?

Honestly, your biggest problem in this respect, and generally the point where we end up at odds on an issue, is that your notion of "cause and effect" is terribly skewed. Mine is too, it's a natural human reaction. But I try hard to keep an open mind and look for the real relationships rather than letting myself fall into assumptions and circular logic.

As I have said before, the CTD is a fantastic motor and I could very easily have ended up with one when I bought mine if it were not for other considerations. The see-saw of better worse compromises between the DMax, CTD, and PS(pre-6.0 at the time) provided no hands down winner based on my estimated usage. I don't begrudge the CTD as superior where it is superior. What I can't stand is the constant crowing from CTD fanatics who go out into the world like a bunch of missionaries, intent on spreading the gospel according to Cummins, and stone all the heretics who just won't accept the one "true word".

Oh well, this is the "Brand Wars" forum.

 

You didn't have to read the book, I gave you an executive summary. :stir:

Ah well, I'll concede the point on whether this is light vs. medium duty. I can see it either way, just different in my initial impression I guess. I took it as another go at "look at the reality of medium duty and assume it applies to light duty", and then went on from there.

Some of the other stuff, we will just have to agree to disagree. Bottom line is, if it's good for you, then I say "good for you!" whatever it is.

That short enough for ya? Take care Bobby, debating with you is always fun... waytogo

 

Actually, we've got lots of International powered school busses here in the PV district too. No idea exactly what it is though...

 

Hmm, I think your view of "everything" and "nobody" is skewed by the odd frequencies of your location and state in general which is not at all representative of the other 49. Kali is the odd ball state by far in most every way. And a good thing too, otherwise I would have to move to Australia or something.

That and your more involved in the OTR, Medium Duty, and Farm implement side than the rest of us. All places where the characteristics of an "inline" do win (pretty much) hands down...