PowerStroke(T444e) vs. Cummins facts

rotfl Hah, not bad.

I will definantly say I gravitate to the biggest stuff for the most part, like most men do.

I don't mind the GM interiors and ride, I just like the Dodge black leather interior better along with the positioning of the driver. I feel that I sit above the hood higher to where the new GM's feel like I sit deep into a cockpit. I like driving a pickup, not an airplane. I will definantly say that I gravitated to the Cummins for it's commanding sound over the other two's "sissy" idle. (might as well throw the Common rail Rams in there too, they sound like doodoo also). But, that comes from my farmer blood and background. Not from a small "ding-a-ling." Is that politically correct?rotfl

Like I said previously, people will naturally gravitate towards what they are familiar with, just like why I drive a Ram Cummins. I'm a farmer and an OTR mechanic. Not that it makes me or anyone that I know feel "more like a man" but just is what I like because I grew up around it. Just like the yuppie crowd, they would look at my "noisy" and "clunky" diesel and frown with a "thats irritating." They are used to their quiet BMW's. As a farmer, my best reply would be "what? Thats what a diesel sounds like."....because thats what I'm used to.

As far as the poser thing, that goes for anyone driving anything. You obviously made your shot at "my" crowd, but thats almost as bad as a yuppie buying a Dmax so he has a bigger pickup than the fellow co-worker that has a parking space next to him.

If you drive around a diesel pickup just so you can say you have a diesel pickup than the poser comment can fly, regardless of brand.

You won't find that around my parts....I've got a small fleet of trailers out back....which is why I really bought a diesel in the first place. waytogo

 

all the fleets, construction, city and other fleetsd use powerstrokes because ford is the best company to deal with in such big numbers, look on the road, how many cab and chassis fords do you see ion comparision to dodge and chevy in 1 ton pickups?
around here 6 out of 10 are ford, 2-3 chevy, and the remaining is a dodge.
farmers around here prefer the fords over dodge...

 

I think this topics been beat to death also, so here's my last say........

 

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

 

New guy here....

....after following along with this thread, I thought a newbie may shed a little light. I bought my 03 7.3 CC LB DRW after looking at all 3 back in 02. Dodge's interior just does nothing for me, looks nor comfort. The Dmax was new, and having problems. The PSD just seemed to have the best ALL AROUND package back then....good motor, good tranny, good rear end, good looks, good/spacious interior, good ride. I love all 3 trucks, and even own an 05 1/2 ton Chevy gasser, and currently in the market for an older Cummins (or PSD) for a work truck. I think the newer Dmax may have the best ALL AROUND package now, then the Dodge then the PSD. They all have their ups/downs, and the debate on I6 vs. V8 will rage on for years and years after we are all gone. I think those that are loyal to one brand and one brand only are closed minded, and need to open their eye's in life to see what is going on. My wife and I have an 03 Ford PSD, 05 Chevy, 71 Dodge Challenger (484" Hemi) 97 Chevy Astro Van, and an 02 Jeep GC Overlander. And we just got rid of a Toyota camry. I drive em all, because I buy what suits me and my wife, not loyal to one brand, and never will be. waytogo opcorn:

 

I agree with you that the best al around package now in the GM's Crew Cab w/Duramax. Ford totally dropped the ball with the 6.0 and i wont trust the 6.4 until its been out for a couple of years. Dodge refuses to do the right thing with the cab situation and besides the newer cummins is have problems as well.

 

I just have a few comments. First for whoever was touting I6 in class8 trucks over V8's, check out a numberred Pete 359 from late 70's -mid 80's. Those Pete's with the 3408 Cat@450hp stock would whip any variation of I6, then or now. Emmissions are what killed those engines along with the fact that mileage sufferred and were expensive to work on. Don't believe me, just ask any truck driver if he could have any wish for a truck that would spank any other, and he "will" tell you about the Cat V8. Those guys had so many tranny problems too. Check out what a '84 Pete w/V8 Cat is worth compared to the same with an I6. No comparason. Someone else started this with that C15 comment, not me.
Secondly, class8 truck engines have completely different objectives than light duty truck engines. Now, before anyone goes off on me because I own a 6.0L PSD, I'll stop you now. I like the Cummins engine just fine. It just don't fit my bill for what I want. Some claim better reliability, simpler design, etc. Not hardly! It does have 2 less cylinders, it's inline design, but not more simple. If anything, I like the fact that the PSD has quite a bit in common with Cat products of today and yesterday. Does HEUI mean anything to anyone? Some may argue it's had it's problems, but so has Duramax and the Cummins with their injection control.
Third, I truly believe you can expect more from the V8's if the technology was available. How many race cars hop up I6's compared to V8's? Well, maybe ricers, but that's because of the room they have to work with. Two more cylinders to improve performance. This usually comes with a broader RPM range than an inline. Hell, if the PSD was as thick as the Cummins, we could take them to new heights. It wasn't me that wrote that Henry Ford rewrote history with that tiny V8 flathead. I wasn't even born yet, hell, my Dad wasn't even born yet. That changed the world. All things being equal, if money was no object, and I could start with a new slate to build a "hoss" engine from scratch, it would definely be a V8. Maybe a V10 or V12? Even Harley Davidson and Briggs & Stratton think the V design is superior. Honda motorcycles, hell yall get my drift.

As I stated before, there is nothing wrong with the I6 Cummins, I choose to drive the PSD because it behaves better all around with my operation. And yes, I probably tow more and more often with my pickup than alot of posters here. Before hollering at me for stating this, let me say that I do own a '99 PSD that runs hotshot and has 376K miles, same driver and he does not want a new truck. Not hotshot as in 600lbs. in the bed, I mean hotshot as in 40' Big Tex GN25 hanging behind it.
Just like every other argument, I think everyone has an intended use for their own truck. Mine fits my intended use very well and sometimes my intended use changes on Saturday night while heading home from a baseball game with the kids and the need arises to smoke an overzealous Cummins boy. Sometimes I do, and sometimes I catch one who has bombed the crap out of his truck. Those are the breaks. Oh, I would like to say that my PSD is at the bottom of the mileage war.

 

Since I was involved in trucking in the 70's-'80's I would have to disagree with a Cat 3408 being the leader. The king of the OTR truck engines was (& still is) a "K" Series Cummins. The K was a 6 cyl @ 1150 Cu. In. that had 750 Hp if you didn't turn it up, One that still hauls out of LA has a mear 1000HP. I asked the owners wife once one time why he wanted so much HP and she informed me that he doesn't like getting passed We do agree that emissions reg's have basically stopped these engines from being produced for OTR trucks......

 

Oh yeah, I stand down. Never hardly see those anymore. Those KTA's were the big boy on the block like you say in stock form. Some claim the Cat 3408 could not touch that engine but I know a different story about that. They would do better than people think. The KTA600 wasn't quite as strong as the numbers that were often thrown around though. Or was that the KTA1150. I only remember ever seeing one in person in a truck and it was one bad motor scooter. I only know the stories my Dad used to tell of these and unless you were running a V8, you didn't stand a remote chance. The one I know of was my uncle's and it was an IH Imoryville(not sure on that spelling) but I remember it being an oilfield engine transplanted into that old cabover. It sounded great too. Funny how a person can remember what that sounded like 25 years ago but can't remember thier own anniversary.

 

Ha, You better not let the other half read that anniversary part

If you want some good reading look at Bruce Mallinson's HP & Torque articles. Although the Cat's still can't quite come up to the might of the Cummins K, after Bruce gets through with them they can be close contenders!

Yes they are some bad hot rods. I came down to the Cummins shop that my son works at and watched them put one of the few K's left on their rollers after he rebuilt it. That truck would make the hair on your arms stand up when they started running it, really some beautiful music.... As a matter of fact the whole shop came out to watch that one!

http://dieselinjection.net/frames.html

 

My dad never had any of these K series giant cummins or 3408's but many a time I have been told that back in the day the small and big cam Cummins motors would eat up Detroit 8V71's, 6V92's, and 8V92's, which was the only thing anyone ran around here. An inline 6 Cummins with the same HP as any of the Detroits listed would eat them up on a hill.

 

That's definitely a fact. A 400 Cummins with a #5 button and 1-1/2 turns would really put out.

 

All I know is that an inline diesel uses less mechanical parts then a comparable "V" engine. I found this article which is quite interesting. This should ease some debate about reliability. The top 3 all make great trucks. People purchase diesels for power and reliability. I am on my 3rd Ram 2500 and I have great success with them. I put 300000 miles on my first one, which was a 99'. I'm sure there are some of you that might of had simular luck. Bottom line is that the most important factor for me is reliability. I run a hot shot service traveling as much as 1500 miles one way, 7 days a week.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051212/SUB/51208024&SearchID=73231560627711

 

I figure id share a post from one of our fellow posters from another forum site:

I have a 96 Powerstroke F350 that had 917,000 on the original engine, the curent engine was a factory replacement and the truck has 1,041,000 on it an still runs great. I adverage about 265,000 on the trans, I'm on the third for the 96. I also have a 2001 F550 with the 7.3 Powerstroke it has 341,000 on it and I'm now on the second trans, the first lasted almost 296,000, then the rear shaft wobbled out due to the fact that I've lengthened the wheel base to 279 in. Both trucks are crewcabs and I run a hotshot delivery service that covers all 48 states and handle loads on the 350 up to 6500 lbs and up to 9500 on the 550. The rule is simple....Service, oil, filters, belts, air cleaners,etc and they'll last. Other than the extended wheel base on the 550 and air bags added to the rear of the 350 no other mods have been made and both trucks pull a 20 foot 12k trailer when I need to.The 96 has a 8 1/2 foot flatbed and the 01 has a 16 1/2 foot flatbed.

 

they both have problems. i have a f650 in my one bay now with the IPR that blew out of the back of the HPOP pump, and f700 cummins next to it that needs an injector and a pump, and should get rebuilt as it came in with a no power complaint for the last 2-3 weeks of there daily use of the truck. IC hose was blown off for this 3 weeks, and thus no air filter was used.

 

Well, let's see. My first job--we had a brand new 1982 C30 6.2 with a 400 gallon sprayer tank and pulled machines behind it--barnyard 4-speed in it. The speed limit was only 55 then, but we did 65 loaded with the pedal to the mat.

GM was first with the diesel and it was a V8--designed from the ground up to fit in the 454 size with enough naturally-aspirated cubes to get a load moving and enough power to keep it moving. A turbo would have been nice, but we didn't know about it then and we liked that truck. The fuel curve was very aggressive and the compression was very high and with 16,000# of combined weight it would shrug into motion without a problem--and the 150hp was enough power for it then.

Fast forward 18 years to 2000 and the same motor with a few improvements--a bit more displacement and a turbo, and you have a 195hp, 430ft# motor coming out of the same plant in Dayton. It worked fine--and is still produced by AMG. I think GM just kept with the V8 because they had been successful with it for a long time.

Same with Ford and the 6.9/7.3--it truly makes no difference. The cylinders were not informed that they were laying over 45* each way. Both engines are over-square. By the way, the 6.9 was developed from an industrial gas engine.

With boost and computers, the engine does whatever the fuel map tells it to do--the engine can do anything at any rpm--it's about not breaking the driveline and making the truck feel 'right' to the driver. Cummins guys always claim they make more torque at low rpms--but look at the curves here (LINK):
This is rearwheel--207hp and 375ft#--add about 15% for flywheel so make it 235hp and 430ft#.


And here (LINK):

At idle speed with the pedal to the metal, the Banks 6.2 can make 400ft#. Trust me, when I'm out in town here in Columbus, Indiana (heard of it?) everyone in the world tries me--this place is packed with Dodge Cummins with stacks blowing black smoke all over the place. You won't beat me across an intersection in my 6.2. I let them drive angerily away because I don't race on the street, but they know they got whipped. Cummins didn't give you the fuel at low rpms to do it. Yeah, you can 'chip it'. But you have to.

A buddy has a 2002 7.3--the last one--275hp and 520ft#. I borrowed it to go pick up a 65 Mustang--about the lightest thing that's ever been on my trailer. It was very weak in acceleration compared to my Banks 6.2--but once you punch the cruise button, it would hold the hills better than my 6.2. Ford doesn't let the driver have as much fuel. Great for everywhere but trying to scoot into traffic on the beltway.

I've been driving these diesel pick-ups as long as they have been out--and they all do the job in easy diesel fashion. The last gasser I drove got 8mpg with a 6,000# trailer and the next week on the same run I got 16 with my diesel and didn't have to downshift for the hills. The '02 Powerstroke gets 12 with that load and 15-16 empty. My 6.2 gets 23 empty and 17 town--better than my wife's new Honda Pilot.

Nobody has made a diesel that will get me out of the old Chevy crewcab yet. It runs with one electrical wire. You can talk all the yak you want but I don't have a 5" exhaust or carpet or bucket seats or power windows or even a tachometer and pillar gauges. It just does it's job and I plug it back in at night.

There's no difference between any of the three modern trucks. They are all big, powerful luxury trucks and I'm afraid to own one.

 

well these are all good points but im a powerstroke lover and thats that but i do own a cummins and like it to, so as one member said a long time ago, their all diesels so there all good!

 

The day I can see a 6.2 turbo'd do what my Cummins can, I will swap one into my early K30 CC Chevy.

The 6.2 with the Banks turbo isn't bad, but it still isn't even close to the realm of the 7.3L PSD, DMax, and any Cummins found in a Dodge for that matter. It's internals are no where even close to being as strong as the bottom ends of the motors listed above.


The idea that 6.2's get great fuel economy is also a myth. People have gotten mid 20's (that really is great as stated by many) out of 6.2's, there is no question about that. But, said people also forget to mention it's in a 1/2ton C10 regular cab short bed that doesn't weigh even close to 5K.

Every 6.2 I've seen and heard of in a real pickup like a K20 or K30 can't break out of the teens on ideal conditions.

Obviously, there are exceptions out there. Turbo'd versions probably do a hair better in heavier trucks, but the average 6.2 N/A can't hang with it's economy vs. the later motors.

All in all, the 6.2 is a great engine. They run forever. I originally wanted one in my K5 blazer when I was blazer buying. But, I wanted more than stock 305 small block power.

 

Well i'm new here and i know this is gonna make me some enemies real quick. All the big three make phenomenal truck's, but as one gentleman quoted the 3208 was a throw away motor, it was but it also came in other trucks besides fords. anyway most v8 diesel's are throw away's as is the ih 444 which is really used in the light end of medium lines the 466 is used in most of the true medium duty trucks. As for the duramax its a great motor but isuzu built gm motor because americans buy v8's, that's also why ford uses a v8. Your average american believes a v8 is better and it doesn't matter what fuel they run.Manufactures build what sells period end of story. It's all about the benjamins baby. I would also like to add that isuzu own personal line of medium duty trucks mostly come with inline motors not v configurations. Yes i am a diesel truck and equiptment tech i own my own mobile repair business. I' m also older than some on this site but i'm probably younger than most and have heard alot of glory days stories. ALL OILBURNERS ROCK NO MATTER WHAT BADGE IS ON IT