I disagree. I find it humorous that with the Navistar and Dmax engines, as soon as you move up from a LD pickup they are no longer V8's and are inline 6's. That larger 8. something L that comes in some of the Topkicks and the legendary DT466 come to mind. As everyone knows, I'm in the trucking business. Detroit Deisel used to build a LOT of V8 diesels in OTR trucks, they are gone and inline 6 engines are the only thing used today in basically anything larger than a 1 ton pickup ( besides an F450/550 and supposedly the V8 DM is available in the Topkicks). CAT, Cummins, and Detroit diesel have all gotten away from V8's and now build inline 6's, that stands out to me. I'm not saying the two V8's can't compete and power numbers show that but I find the ISB much sturdier and longer lasting because of it's design. I am waiting to hear of PSD's and DM's getting well over a half million miles like I hear about the ISB's. I just don't see the mileage coming from the V8 diesels. The cummins inline 6 is like the Energizer bunny in my book.... rotfl You have good reason too. It rides cushy and is fine for the average tow rig. The fact that it can't stand bigger tires and truck pulls/offroading steers me away from it. I like lifted HD trucks with swampers that kill at the pulls and the HD's can't hang with the Ford or Dodge. I'm sure larger tires and offroad type stuff with HD pickups is not what most are interested in here and I'm sure that I'm alone with that since this site is more geared towards towing, which is fine. . That hurts that you think my opinions are so off the wall you can't stand to agree with me on something. oke:
Why is it humorous and how does it invalidate my point? Your argument is no more valid or relevant than the argument that since one sells the most, therefore it must be the best. There are other things to consider that make it impossible to tie them together in that way. The V8's enjoy smoother, quiter operation and less vibration along with a much wider and flatter power band. So they make sense where that is a significant concernt, and in those categories, the V8s are the clear winners. In heavier class trucks, longevity, simplicity, fuel mileage, and all sorts of other things come in and eclipse the smoother operation, and the numerous gears as well as better training in engine power management allow better use of the peaky power band of the Cummins. So, longevity, simplicity, and peak power (per unit of fuel) output are categories the Cummins wins "hands down". So, I stand by my statement. Each has categories that it "wins", and there is simply no "hands down" winner across all categories. And it can stand "truck pulls", there are a fair few doing just fine even in modified classes. But no, they don't like larger tires, but that is primarily because of resulting CV angles, not an inherent weakness. And who cares with a tow rig? To be blunt, I want a truck that works best for what I want to do with it. And IFS works best for a tow rig if it does not see serious off-road use. If I ever decide to "off road" my '02, sure, I'll swap in a D60 and move on. But it makes no sense to impose "off road ease of upgrade" on a tow rig at the cost of towing ability. And in my mind, the drawbacks of "live" front axle very significant in a tow rig used for towing. In fact, it makes about as much sense to me as running large tires on a tow rig that never sees more than dirt roads and the occasional camp site or fire road. My 33s work just fine on and off the road, and the IFS couldn't care less. LOL, you and I are simply polar opposites. I just enjoy poking a stick at you too much to stop… oke:
Actually Navistar/International uses a hell of alot of T444E (PSD) motors in medium duty trucks. While they arent class 8 tractors, alot of 4700 series International straight frame trucks are powered by this motor, and do quite well with it. Last time I checked the International 4700 wasnt an "LD" truck.
Comparing what I said to the guy that "figured" Dodge outsold everyone else is silly. It is a fact that an inline 6 design is more efficient than a V8 design, thats why none of the manufacturers like CAT, Detroit, and John Deere don't even try and design a V8 diesel that would be in a light-medium applications. Some people like that the new "soccer mom acceptable" diesels are quieter than traditional diesels.....I like not having that multi injection idle stuff that makes it quieter at idle. I love the sound of the inline 6 diesels, they actually SOUND like a diesel. I'm not worried about the powerband between the inline 6 and V8 engines. I have plenty of power whenever I need it and don't find the Cummins narrow band to be problematic, especially with 4 gears and lockup in two of them. That is the main reason why I don't want a 3rd gen Dodge, they don't sound like a diesel. Call me a fanatic but I've grown up around loud diesel engines all my life and that is what I have learned and have come accustomed to. I find what you said that is in bold funny. Me and the rest of the Dodge guys, including Ford owners already have a D60. Like I said, I am probably alone with what I'm interested in HD trucks. This site is geared towards towing, which is what almost all of the members use their trucks for, inluding you. I agree that what you do with your truck IFS is plenty fine. I see HD trucks as a great buildup for a hi performance truck. I am into lifted HD diesel Dodges and Fords that pull at the pulls with swampers, Welds, and a seriously bombed motor just as much as I'm interested in what they are capable of towing. But like I said, that is what I'm interested in and is really, not relavant to this site. We are not nearly as opposite as you might think, from my memory we agree a lot of the times. Why you like "poking a stick" at me, I don't know.
You must have a really narrow opinion of what a "real diesel" sounds like. To me an diesel sounds like a real diesel, since it's a diesel.:doah: My DD VW Jetta with a 1.9L inline 4 cyl diesel sounds like a diesel. The '05 6.0L PSDs are freakin LOUD and sound like, well, a diesel. I can hear my brother's '03 D-max Chevy from my backyward when he pulls into my driveway, it sounds like a diesel. If what you're saying is you like the older Dodges that idle so loud that you can't even hear yousrself think when you're standing within 20 feet then you're likely in the minority on that. I don't drive a semi every day, and I sure don't want to have to crank the stereo to hear it or yell so my wife can hear me as I drive my $45k truck down the highway. Same reason I don't put loud exhaust on my cars and trucks anymore. When I was a kid I thought that everyone else thought I was cool because I had loud exhaust. Then I grew up and realized that they didn't think I was cool, they thought I was annoying. Now it pisses me off when the neighborhood teenagers drive their straightpiped cars and farty rice rockets into the hood at night because they're so loud that they disturb my peace and quiet. Once again, no all the Dodge guys do not have D60s. You're arguing about older trucks AGAIN here, comparing a narrow year range of Dodges to GMs and Fords in general. I do beleive that the new Dodges DO use pilot injection now to quiet down the idle, and I am pretty sure that the 6.0L is now louder than the Cummins at idle. You should put a disclaimer in your sig that says "*When I say Dodge I mean 01-02.5 Dodges only*"
It's the same as the one in the Ford. rotfl I think you're incorrect there. A great many TDR users would prefer to program out the split injection. It's a waste of fuel in addition to the sound issue. Me personally, for what I paid for a truck, I wanted one that sounds like a Diesel, and to me, the 6.0, the new Cummins, and especially the Duramax, don't sound like a Diesel. I paid a lot of money for my truck, and it irritates me that I have to buy an exhaust system, remove a silencer ring, and do a few other mods to make it sound like a Diesel. The 7.3, older Cummins before HPCR, and even the 6.5 TD sounded like REAL Diesels.
I would take the sound of a straight piped 12 valve 94-98 cummins any day of the week. It's not that it's loud, it's just that it sounds like the diesels from back in the day. Actually sounds just like an old deuce and a half chugging around. Daddy likes. I'm just a huge diesel fan and love everything about the engines so it's just music to my ears. http://www.jannettyracing.com/media_files/Acclerate_2.mpg
LOL, Bobby, I think you are intentionally misunderstanding me. But hey, in the interest of fun, I'll bite... I said that the two were alike in that you can't draw the stated conclusion from the indicated starting point. And that is plainly true. It's just simple fact. I made no reference or comparison to the flawed "statistics", only the flawed logic, which in fact is the same. And it's the same with the "soccer mom acceptable diesels", power band, and other related points. I and lots of others like it quieter and LOVE the broader power band. And I didn't say they were important to you. I said that there are different categories and different engines excel in different categories. That the Cummins is clearly NOT a "hands down" winner as so many Cummins fanatics would claim. You are more than welcome to your own choices, and the Cummins may be the "hands down winner" for *you*, but you can't say that it is the winner *period*, because that simply is not true. That does not hold water any more than using faulty logic to imply that the Cummins is better in LD trucks due to its use in MD trucks. I also fail to see what you put in bold as "funny". Sure, you Ford and Dodge guys already have that Dana 60 *if* the truck is ever converted to serious off-road use (as in "requires tires larger than 33"). But as I said and you ignored, you guys also get to deal with the negative aspects of a live front axle all those years while using it as a tow vehicle and daily driver. If you're willing to compromise towing and DD performance so you can run big tires on a truck that is too expensive and nice to actually use the capabilities implied by those tires off-road, go ahead. I want to use my truck as a DD and tow rig for the next 100-200k miles, and its features were selected to provide IMO the best mix for that purpose. And it's quite likely that I will sell it before I get there anyway, so I want what works best for me in the foreseeable future, not what might materialize 10-15 years from now when I probably won't own it and may not even be into off-roading (since I'll be in my 50s) I see this much the same as I see your stance on off road K5s where you say, "If you want to run bigger tires, just add more lift, DON'T CUT THE FENDERS!" all the time. In this, like that, you are heedless of the fact that you are making major sacrifices on the primary purpose for some secondary aesthetic. There you want the "big tire look" of a "hard core off road vehicle", but by raising it till the stock wheel wells clear the tires, you make the CoG so high the vehicle sucks on the road and off. Here you talk about raising and putting on big tires with little reason more than "looks" (I know you might get some benefit on the farm and there is the "pulls" comment too) while still keeping the primary purpose as "tow rig", which you just compromised with big tires and lift that's not really needed or used. Again, you tout the benefits of a solid axle on a "tow rig" due to an ability to, again, raise it up and stick big tires on it. Even though that brings a bunch of draw backs with no benefit other than "a look" (unless you are hard core tractor pull, I'll give you that, but then the primary purpose is not tow rig or DD). That is, unless you're planning on doing some serious off-roading with your lifted long bed nice shiny and expensive tow rig. I'm certainly not. And most buyers also are not, so tell me again why the solid front axle is such a plus to anyone other than those who want to make major sacrifices in the primary use of a truck just for a "look"? Or those rare privileged few who can afford a nice new truck to make a serious off road truck out of. LOL, I just realized, it's the same thing as the soccer mom/yuppie fixation. You said your "probably alone" on this site due to it's tow rig focus. And I was going to say that I think you're probably in a minority of those that buy these trucks in general. But I was wrong. They want big SUVs and "Trucks" for the look, with no intention of using them for what that "look" implies. And they often go so far as to add the push bars, lights, big tires and such like too. So we get legions of SUVs that never see so much as grass, much less dirt. And HD trucks that were not bought to tow, but for "image". I know that you *do* use yours to tow some around the farm and what not, but the parallels between many with similar views that don't happen to live on a farm are just too delicious to pass up. haha And *please* don't get me wrong. I fully support your decision to do this to your truck. Or to choose your truck for whatever purpose you like, including running 35" boggers with 8" of lift or whatever it is/was. I'm not "dising" you, I'm just saying that those compromises and "costs" are not acceptable to most of us, so please don't try to tell us that the truck you chose for your reasons is the better truck over all. Oh, and there is nothing wrong with the GM HD as a performance platform. It'll handle the drags and the towing track just fine and guys do it all the time with pretty good success and much less money in it than the Dodges or Fords, but your right, they can't compete in the "big tire" classes without front end modifications. But at least we don't have to o-ring our wimpy little aluminum heads just to make decent power. :stir: Finally, I hope you realize that I'm just having fun with you and the "Brand Wars" forum. Yeah, I know we agree on lots of things. But we are polar opposites on global sacrifices for a "look". And in that respect, it makes us like "Firing Line" or something on these topics. Entertainment for readers (and us too) while hashing out topics from both sides to see what relevant points can be brought out. Believe it or not, I actually like you and I'm not trying to tick you off… Just answering your points as I see them. <offering handshake> Ahh, now I've got to get back to "reading specs" which I hate so badly, and consequently, why I've wasted so much time with these topics and posts in the last week.. Take care Bobby, and don't let me get to you, it's all in fun, even if we disagree...
I think what you guys mean by "sounds like a diesel" is really "sounds like an OTR truck". I'm with Shaggy on this too. I had the GTOs, 340 Cuda, 39 Chevy Coup, 72 L-82 and all with loud exhaust and thought it was cool. Then I grew up and realized how irritating it is to everyone around, in particular and most importantly, ME! :doah: Now I have not modified the exhaust of my DMax to lower EGT when towing and fueling because I *like* it quiet in the cab and I'm afraid I'll pick up more noise if I open 'er up. So I turn down the fuel to keep the EGT down and ride in my nice quiet truck as I travel from Coast to Coast or just across the state...
Have you guys ridden in a 12 valve 2nd gen dodge? The cab is nice quiet, Dodge used about 1" of sound barrier in the engine compartment and another 3/4" in the cab. You can hold a convo or take a nap or whatever your into at highway speeds. I run a grandpa series muffler on my trail rig because I hate the noise echoing through the canyons while wheeling. And my cab in my dodge is nice and quiet, well, so is my exhaust though. I straight piped my truck but the HPCR's sound like poo so I went back to a muffler.
Why would you need such a thing? rotfl Sorry, side effect of someone who type a lot and has learned to type fast so it just spills out as I think... Before I know it, you have posts like you see here. Believe it or not, I actually sometimes try to trim them down, but didn't feel like going back to edit that one to remove redundancies and such. It's pretty much just exactly the way it spilled from my brain. Like paint from a bucket I guess? Or p**s from a boot might be better...
I started reading from the beginning but every 3 posts seemed to be duplicates. Someone says something and the other 2 arge it, someone says something and the other 2 argue it... Anyway, in case you didn't catch it, the most important thing posted in this thread was this: http://www.jannettyracing.com/media_files/Acclerate_2.mpg
Yes I have, and I guess we have different standards of quiet. Mine is in a whole different category to a 2nd Gen Dodge... and I owned one...
Well I guess we do then. I was in/around a 05 I think duramax the other day and I couldn't even tell it was a diesel from standing around it. Thats just not for me.
The V8 DD are gone because they couldn't meet the smog regs with a 2 stroke diesel engine. In its day in big rigs with the twin turbo O/O spec 8V92 was the drag race queen of OTR trucks. You didn't see many V8 Cats cause you needed a twin stick 5x4 or 6x4 trans to hold up with the torque a 3408 Cat made then. Now they make higher rated 13, 15, and 18 spd RoadRanger trans. On a diesel PU sounding like a OTR truck. me and my friends find it funny that the contractor's PUs are louder than our Class 8 trucks are ideling. And RJF and the cummins this and cummins that, almost evrybody I work with has either a DD S60 or Cat powered rigs. Most of us look down on the Cummins powered rigs. :stir: imp:
WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE ARGUING OVER THE FRONT SUSPENSION! In the orriginal posters 2nd sentence he says he is looking at a 2wd dually, every single one of these trucks in 2wd is IFS. It is a completely mute point to argue about. One thing, Bobby, is that the T444E and T366E are used in MANY medium duty applications, almost as much as the famed DT466 now. There are still tons of Detroit 2 stroke V' motors on the road serving their purpose and getting the job done as well, and they were doing it better than I-6's, because the I-6's couldnt. If it burns diesel fuel, its a real diesel. Just because it sounds different than an I-6 doesnt mean crap. Just because you like that it sounds better doesnt mean its suddely superior to others because your truck sounds more like an OTR truck than the next guy with a D-max. Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. Do i like the sound of a cummins over the D-max, you bet, but im not going to base my arguement over personal preference on how it sounds, because that is idiotic. I personally like the sound of an IDI 444 idling better than a cummins, but that doesnt make it a better motor. To the orriginal poster, all 3 have their advantages and dissadvantages. Go out to the dealers, drive them all in the trim you would want, and make your decision on personal preference. Any of them will tow your burb no problem, all of them will be fine with the cabover, and all of them are "Real" diesels, just go drive and pick what you like best. Me personally, i like the ford trucks, but hate the 6.0. I like the GM except for how low the framerails hang and the pricetag. I like the dodge except for the fact that no matter what you put under the hood, its still a dodge, and that the backseat sucks with me being 6'5".
