You wont be singing that tune when that bad boy breaks down. Extremely conjested and complicated engine for most home mechanics.
GM trucks have the poorest quality (build wise), have for years, not limited to the truck either. remember when cadillac's were falling apart. Dodge has come a long way in the quality dept. Yep dodges do look like min vans in the inside, lol. but they hold up pretty well. GM uses the worst leather ever.
Sorry Russ, but thats simply your bias opinion and nothing more. Look across the country at farmers and ranchers....rather you like it or not...these are the people that really test these trucks day in and day out for hard use as debated in this thread. Not people like you and I (even though I am a farmer I keep the Dodge out of the dirt) that hardly tow %25 of the time, and IIRC, I think you have mentioned your towing mileage is an even smaller percentage than that. Farmers and ranchers usually put their trucks through the paces, pulling discs around, heavy equipment, bumpy roads, and lots of offroad use. Day in and day out of this..... What will you most commonly find on these farms, ranches, and dairies????? Ford Super Duties, followed by Dodges, and GM's in a long last place. Don't tell me that IFS is supreme for towing and offroad use when the both SFA brands are far favored by the hardest customers throughout our countries farms and ranches. Also funny how the easiest customers that treat their trucks like cars basically except 0%-25% of the time choose GM over the other two. Don't even get me started on lifted pickups and poser this, poser that. I see 3 IFS Chevies with their roofs scraping across the lunar surface for every Dodge OR Ford around here.
And you think Russ has a biased opinion, you should turn and look in the mirror. You have to stop and realize that your small view of what goes on in california isnt how the entire country works. Take a trip to the midwest and take a good long look at what trucks do all the work out here. Its the Fords and GM's, dodge is a DISTANT third. The wanabee's drive dodges out here. And im not just talking about farming either, but contractors as well. I rarely deal with construction guys driving dodges, most drive ford trucks and vans. Am I saying this is how the entire country is, no, but it is the way things work everywhere in the midwest i have been.
Your right, it is my opinion, but that’s what “Brand Wars” is all about isn’t it? Yes, Ford is “#1” on work sites, but that’s at least in part due to their aggressive incentive programs. Don’t they offer the same for agg? And we’ve heard from many fleet mechanics that absolutely HATE Fords that are foisted on them by bean counters in management. And anyone who cares to look can easily find counter examples to that who hate the GMs or Dodges in their fleets, it just depends on what you’re looking for or view you’re trying to support. And since when has “most common” EVER been and indicator of “best”? Does that mean Craftsman makes better tools the Snap-On? Did that mean domestic vehicles of the 80s were better than imports? Or Detroit is better than Cat (or John Deer that you love so much for that matter) And on, and on… See, my problem is not really that I think GM is THE best, or even that IFS is THE best front suspension. What I have a problem with is people like you and others in this thread who feel compelled to put whatever your favorite is up on a pedestal and all but demand that everyone else bow down before it. For me to claim that “IFS is THE best 4x4 option” would be JUST as ridiculous as all the crap about “Cummins is king because it’s a MD motor”, “I6 is best because that’s all you see in OTRs”, “Ford is best because they sell the most”. They are all *based* on some element of truth, and that element WILL have relevance in certain areas, it MAY well apply to the person making the statement, but it DOES NOT lead to the conclusion that the people making the statement are trying to suggest. And when there are limited scenarios where the conclusion is valid, there are too many people determined take their single myopic view of the world and try to apply that globally. . So I have no problems seeing and admitting that there are applications where I6 is superior to V8, and also the opposite. Likewise there are some applications where IFS is superior and some where SFA is better. But all the hard line “there is one true answer and I’ll tell you what it is” guys leave me feeling I need to take a hard line opposing just to provide some perspective. You guys cover the other side quite well without my input. Otherwise, people reading these threads will assume that since there is such overwhelming support for some choice, it MUST be right (the sheeple response). But if I can make an equally credible argument on the other side, at least MAYBE they will be forced to stop and think for themselves to figure out what it all means to them… And where the devil did you get that I said IFS is “supreme for off road use”? Put the pipe down and step away… Surely you must know I would never be foolish enough to state such a thing. ALL my off-road vehicles have SFA because that is what works best in that application, period… As for your statement about SFA being the choice for all “the hardest customers”, we’ve had that discussion too. And I believe that it has been pointed out to you at that your experience is pretty much limited to your local area. Experiences posted by others indicated that in their areas they observed results quite different from those you represented as “the way things are”. Then again, even if you are right, and some do agree with your opinions, I’ll restate that “most popular” is not the same as “best”. On the “easiest customers” choosing GM, assuming it is true (and I don’t think it is) why is that not a valid demographic? Why does that make them “posers”? If they have more criteria and application that support the choice of IFS more than they are interested in criteria that would support SFA, why does that invalidate their choice or the vehicle and label them posers? <shrug> That’s what I’ve been saying all along, that people should choose what suits their needs the best, not what the internet harpies are singing to the rafters. I (like most of us) could get by just fine most of the time with a 1/2 ton regular cab 2WD. I bought an HD 4x4 Crew Cab for those times WHEN I DO NEED IT, and because there were too many times my 2WD 1/2 ton left me wanting more. Why is it some of you guys feel the need to draw a line and say “because I need a HD more than this much, I’m justified in owning one, the rest of you are posers.”? And again, just because you see Ford (or Dodge, or GM) on the work sites of farms does NOT make them the best, EVEN AT THAT APPLICATION. Things are far more complex than that, just like it is when evaluating the empty assertion that “CTD is best because it is a MD motor”. And finally, why would I care if you point out all the lifted Chevies? Yes, there are plenty of posers out there driving a Chevy. And to make it even worse, the choice of a Chevy for that use is particularly foolish given the problems of lifted IFS plus the cost. But the yuppies and “posers” have their representatives among all the trucks. I think we can all pretty much discount those folks and lump them in the same category as the ricers with PVC cages and JC Whitney “wings” and “tips” on their stock Accords. What I’m talking about are the “real posser” (hows that for a turn on words? ) crowd you guys want to attribute to GM customers. The ones who want you to think they are driving a real working truck. Sure, they exist, I don’t deny it at all. But for a yuppie/poser, which do you think is going to be more appealing to shore up their “wanna be working man” image and provide the best “compensating boost”? A truck that the most vocal folks around are always crowing about, or the one that the vocal crowd is determined to represent as “inferior”?
Geez, you would think I'm readin war and peace, you guys have a lot to say. I just found this site, I'm still amazed how the big 3 can all be on the same site. I figured I'd see guns blazin. I don't like the styling of the Chevy, and the GMC looks real good, but it's all about the engine. I would rather have my door handles and knobs breaking vs. my engine crappin out. I think all of the diesels are goin downhill with all the EGR and everything coming up. Soon its gonna be illegal to put boxes on our trucks. And you GM guys watch out, the cp3's are out for the new rams, big, big power.imp: I'm runnin for cover!
Oh, and just to be clear, maybe I should define what I mean by "poser". To me it's really one of 2 breeds. 1) The full on poser who builds something that "looks" the part, but it's all show. Hondas with wings and exhaust tips. Stock 2bbl Camaros with "big-n-littles", lifted 4x4s that never go off the pavement. That type of thing... 2) The ones who bought something they have no intention of ever using. People like the middle aged lawyer in downtown Scottsdale driving a Ferrari around town, or the guy down the street with a F250 all trimmed out with no hitch, nothing to haul, and nothing more than groceries have ever or will ever go in the bed. But even at that, while I do consider them posers, I couldn't care less except to sorta feel sorry for them, sometimes combined with a little bit of contempt for not being self confident enough to make rational decisions based on more than appearance and how others perceive them.
Hey Beeram, welcome aboard! LOL, no need to run for cover. We’re really all friends here, for the most part anyway… That’s actually what I think is best about this site. We’ve got people with strong feelings on all sides of the various points of contention. If you go to a “focused” site, it’s like “preaching to the choir” and it's too easy to start feeling like "this is the one true way". Here, if you want to make a statement of “fact” on a point of contention, you better be ready to back it up, because somebody will call you on it. Debates like this (only allowed in Brand Wars by the way) really make us think about our prejudices, biases, and opinions as we work together (and against each other) trying to find the real facts. Jump right in, the water’s fine! Except over by Bobbie, he pees in the water! rotfl
Great point bad dog, and the best feeling is racin a rice-burner and seein the look on their face. But I don't get it, I rarely get people who want to race, it's annoying. BTW, we have a camper we pull, and 4 ATV's with our suburban, so no posin here.waytogo
Yes it is complicated, but I'm the average home mechanic, and I wouldn't be afaraid to attempt anything on a Duramax that I had the confidence to do. If I don't understand how it works I'm not going to mess with it. IMO, all the newer engines are made too complicated. What about the new Ford gas engines? All those plastic covers and plumbing. Those are congested too. At least you can see a Hemi or Vortec.
I think all the stock leather could be better. Yes, GM's is bad, but Ford's is bad too. I sat in a 2005 F 250 Lariat at Cabela's and it was way too slippery. I prefer cloth, GM cloth seats are the best I've seen. Way better than that cheap cloth Ford uses. I don't know about Dodge, I haven't been in one of the new trucks yet. Everybody in my family owns some kind of GM, none have ever fallen apart. Yes, there are squeaks and rattles when they get older, but the build quality is not bad. Now I do agree with you on some of the cheaper vehicles, like base S-10s and Aveos. Their quality is garbage as far I'm concerned, but you get what you pay for. I think thats why some guys think the GM has poor quality. BTW, what Caddys were falling apart? I'm not trying to argue any facts with that question, I'm just not sure what you mean.
I agree on the leather, it all sucks, including mine, though it's holding up just fine really. And Dodge cloth is actually very nice, I liked it in my Ram. The Caddys in question were just like all the 80s and early 90s domestics, pretty much crap across the board. Only diff was, you paid a lot more for the crap that said Caddy on the side just to get some extra cheap chrome film coated plastic on what was otherwise exactly the same junk.
Cool, I didn't know about the Dodge cloth. waytogo That sucks about those cars. I never heard of trouble with the Caddys, I was just a little kid back then!imp:
Exactly what he said. You will like it here. Well, no commoent on Bobbie peeing in the waterrotfl Everyone here is cool as a fanwaytogo
BTW, my leather suks too. its turning blue from my jeans. King ranch has the nicest leather, but wayyyyy overpriced. BigHD, your absolutely right, all these new motors suk! Most people dont believe me when I tell them that the egr's on diesels are engine killers. Too many computer controlled functions on these motors. Hell, I can barely keep my computer from crashing! Remember when everything was mechanical, those were the days.:doah:
HEY! Give me a break....I had a lot to drink that night and everbody but me wanted to get in the pool.....rotfl Russ, I've been in 23 different states. Just 6 weeks ago I was in Nevada, Idaho, and Montana. There were more Fords pulling snowmobile trailers than anything, with about equal GM's and Dodges. Single out California if you'd like....but farming is farming rather it's in California or New York. No one can convince me that Dodges and Fords are not the best for farmers and ranchers when they are favored. It has nearly nothing to do with incentives, most of the people I know buy used anyway and I don't know anyone with a base model fleet truck that bought it because it was cheap. Most farmers and ranchers actually buy fairly loaded trucks. Why do you think the King Ranch edition was created?
The main problem with today's leather vehicles is its too thin! Thats what I think. My dad's burb's driver seat tore at less than 100K, very thin leather. Although I like the sweade and leather combination in the late model Dodges, it doesn't look like it will last due to the thickness. I think the best leather is the King Ranch, nice thick tough leather, and the earlier 2nd gen Dodges that have the thicker tougher leather. It's not as soft as the GM's and new Dodges and is probably why Dodge started to use the thin stuff instead (do I credit this the "I want a smoother ride" crowd?:stir: ). I have seen the 2nd gen thick rougher leather wear great. My seat has little to no signs of wear at 121K, neither does my dad's at 107K, and my neighbors lifted '97 looks great still. Anyone that has ever had a lifted truck knows what that does to seats. It's too bad the big three wouldn't go back to some of the thicker tougher leathers...sure, it isn't as soft but at least it holds up.
Welcome! That is whats great about this site, most of us are friends (as good as it gets on the internet anyway) and get along great. Welcome to the forums!
